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What happens if you just stop PAYING?

Forum: Buying, Renting, and Selling Timeshares

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What happens if you just stop PAYING?

I have enjoyed timeshares for twenty years and my family has enjoyed many wonderful vacations using them. The problem with timeshares is that there is no established secondary market for selling them. I look forward to the day when it will be as easy to sell a timeshare as it is to buy it. That day will arrive sooner rather than later if some of the deadbeat resorts that sell timeshares for $8,000 that are immediately worthless are put out of business permanently.

Certainly these resorts refuse to take deed backs because they recognize the timeshare is worthless the day they sell it. Jayjay's argument that the owners should continue to prop up these deadbeat resorts by continuing to pay the MFs delays the day when the timeshare industry cleans up its act and weeds out these deadbeats and establishes a secondary market.

I believe in the sanctity of a contract as much as anyone but I also recognize that some state and/or Federal regulation should be brought to bear on an industry where the comparative knowledge of the parties entering into the agreement is so disparate that it often results in one party being unjustly enriched and the other with a timeshare that cannot be sold or given away.

Avatar for carvana carvana

6 years ago
Dec 01, 2008

We were told by the time share saleswoman that we can "Just sell our time share when we didn't want it anymore." The day my gullable husband who earns the majority of our household income was tricked into thinking it was such a great deal buying something we could will to our children so that they could pay maintenance fees for the rest of their lives for a timeshare they might get to use a few days a year...I was mad as hell. I knew when our purse got tight, he would yell at me about the timeshare even though I NEVER WANTED IT IN THE FIRST PLACE. I looked at the lady and told her I would rather buy land somewhere and she lied and said to my husband, "You would have to pay taxes and insurance and that would be much more of a hassel." The 10 acre lot I wanted to buy back then was selling for $10,000 and the property taxes were only $100 a year and the insurance the same where as we have been stuck paying $85 a month times 12 going on 5 years now. So in ten years we could have literally bought another piece of land with what we are throwing away in maintenance fees. The lot was near a lake. I am so mad that she told my husband "how unreasonable and cheap I was being." I wanted to walk out right then and I should of by the way I was being disresptected and lied to. But oh no, after a horrible week at the Imperial Palace on a sagging mattress and a lousy air conditioner sold this time share that have bankrupted many a family because they bought what they really could not afford. The sellers DO NOT CARE ABOUT FAMILIES let alone their finances after they fool someone and get their hard earned cash. My timeshare cannot be sold or given away. I would guess none of them can. I advise everyone to drop tail and run like hell when those pimps who call themselve time share agents want you to come to one of their "meetings."

Avatar for roxannel15 roxannel15

6 years ago
Dec 01, 2008

ken1193 wrote:
That all said, it seems to me (...and maybe I'm mistaken) that Carvana was offering suggestions primarily intended to help a financially distressed owner persuade a resort to consider deedback ....

Once again, nowhere in the op's post did he say he was financially stressed .... he just wanted to get rid of the timeshare.

Avatar for jayjay jayjay

6 years ago
Dec 02, 2008

ken1193 wrote:
An alternative approach that I actually like better is one employed by a certain RCI Points facility located in Texas (although I probably should not provide the resort identification). At that particular facility, as soon as maintenance fees become in arrears, the owner is promptly locked out and foreclosure promptly begins. One attorney / law firm gets all the business at a reduced rate and they act swiftly and decisively. There is no owner there two years in arrears, because before "year two" of delinquency ever even arrives that owner has already become a FORMER owner and the week resold. The maintenance fees at this facility are, as one might expect, very low indeed --- since 98+ % of all ownership accounts are current at all times...

I am in complete agreement with your statement above. Some resorts are far too lenient. We were once at a (gold crown, ocean front) resort's front desk when an owner called in wanting to use his unit .... he was in arrears a couple of years on his maintenance fees. The front desk told him that he would have to pay his maintenance fee(s) before being allowed to enter.

He should have been put in foreclosure the year before when he didn't pay his maintenance fees.

Avatar for jayjay jayjay

6 years ago
Dec 02, 2008

carvana wrote:
"I suggest you send a certified letter to the resort telling them your circumstances. If your failure to pay is the result of the loss of a job, a reduction in pay, the death of a spouse, a divorce, or any valid reason tell them."

For the seventeenth time, the op made no comment about being in any life dire straights as you mentioned above .... he merely had no use for the timeshare any longer and wanted to stop making maintenance fee payments. Please read the op's first post once again.

Avatar for jayjay jayjay

6 years ago
Dec 02, 2008

carvana wrote:
I have enjoyed timeshares for twenty years and my family has enjoyed many wonderful vacations using them. The problem with timeshares is that there is no established secondary market for selling them.

There is IF you do your homework and persuse all the ad sites to see what a comparable week has sold for. It's called self education, just like these forums (and others like TUG) try to educate people concerning all phases of timeshare.

Quote:
I look forward to the day when it will be as easy to sell a timeshare as it is to buy it.

Don't hold your breath. It's the nature of the beast and that's why we're here. A resale will ALWAYS sell for what the market (buyer) will pay .... no more, no less. There will never be a resale scale to go buy .

That day will arrive sooner rather than later if some of the deadbeat resorts that sell timeshares for $8,000 that are immediately worthless are put out of business permanently.

The resorts aren't deadbeats, nonpaying owners are the deadbeats by not paying their fees. Until and unless timeshares are regulated by the federal government, the current practices will remain as they are now. That's why we tell people to NEVER BUY FROM A DEVELOPER, because the minute you do your week drops to 1/2 (if you're lucky) to 1/4 in value of what you paid initially.

Quote:
Certainly these resorts refuse to take deed backs because they recognize the timeshare is worthless the day they sell it. Jayjay's argument that the owners should continue to prop up these deadbeat resorts by continuing to pay the MFs delays the day when the timeshare industry cleans up its act and weeds out these deadbeats and establishes a secondary market.

It's not a resort's responsibility to educate the public on developer bought timeshares vs the resale market .... every buyer should do their own due diligence and read everything on the internet they can concerning all phases of timesharing, the ins and outs, the scams, the good, the bad and the ugly.

The first timeshare we ever bought was from a developer because we didn't know any better. By the time I got back home and was able to peruse the internet concerning a developer bought week vs a resale, it was too late to rescind. I don't blame the developer, I BLAME MYSELF for not getting to the internet in time. Developers have very high overhead and they have to make a profit ..... again, I didn't blame the developer.

Quote:
I believe in the sanctity of a contract as much as anyone but I also recognize that some state and/or Federal regulation should be brought to bear on an industry where the comparative knowledge of the parties entering into the agreement is so disparate that it often results in one party being unjustly enriched and the other with a timeshare that cannot be sold or given away.

Again, since buying that first developer timeshare, I never buy anything without checking it out backwards and forwards and inside and out on the internet. That's what I should have done then, but I had other things on my mind like unpacking and getting life back in order after vacation.

We went on to buy 8 resales at a fair price and I sold all of them for what we paid for them via my timehare education via the internet.

Avatar for jayjay jayjay

6 years ago
Dec 02, 2008

roxannel15 wrote:
The day my gullable husband who earns the majority of our household income was tricked into thinking it was such a great deal buying something we could will to our children so that they could pay maintenance fees for the rest of their lives for a timeshare they might get to use a few days a year...I was mad as hell. I knew when our purse got tight, he would yell at me about the timeshare even though I NEVER WANTED IT IN THE FIRST PLACE.

This could be my story .... I didn't even want to go to the presentation, I wanted to go to 'Animal Kingdom' but my husband insisted we go to the presentation.

We WERE very impressed with the resort as it was a gold crown, very nice huge resort. When they tried to sell us a 2 bedroom for X amount of dollars, I insisted that we couldn't afford it. Then they offered a 1 bedroom in a very popular area of the resort facing a waterpark for far less money, but something we could afford, so we signed on the dotted line.

When we got ready to sell it, we took an 8k loss, but again I don't blame the resort, I BLAME MYSELF. We did have many good tradess with the unit, but we never actually got to stay in it.

Avatar for jayjay jayjay

6 years ago
Dec 02, 2008

Cease fire requested...

The actual OP in this matter weighed in only once so, in truth, we don't really know anything at all about his particular personal circumstances. I'd agree that his posting APPEARS to be more of an expression of boredom with his ownership than a claim of actual financial distress, but how can we really know? It may be that he (understandably) does not want to disclose embarassing details of his personal financial situation, or he may simply be unable to articulate them with sufficient clarity. Who knows?

I'm certainly not regarded as a "mediator" --- in my former line of work there were generally always clear winners and vanquished losers. Nonetheless, in this particular matter of discussion I am recommending a cessation of hostilities --- a cease fire, if you will. All posters have made their points and positions sufficiently known. I submit that there is really little or nothing more to be gained by ongoing attempts to pummel the topic (and / or one another) into submission. Perhaps all could now just move on instead?

Last edit by ken1193 on Dec 02, 2008 08:29 AM.

Avatar for ken1193 ken1193

6 years ago
Dec 02, 2008

Cease fire requested...

ken1193 wrote:
The actual OP in this matter weighed in only once so, in truth, we don't really know anything at all about his particular personal circumstances. I'd agree that his posting APPEARS to be more of an expression of boredom with his ownership than a claim of actual financial distress, but how can we really know? It may be that he (understandably) does not want to disclose embarassing details of his personal financial situation, or he may simply be unable to articulate them with clarity. Who really knows?

I'm certainly not regarded as a "mediator" --- in my former line of work there were generally always only clear winners and vanquished losers. Nonetheless, in this particular matter of discussion I am recommending a cessation of hostilities --- a cease fire, if you will. All posters have made their points and positions sufficiently known. I submit that there is really little or nothing more to be gained by ongoing attempts to pummel the topic (or one another) into submission. Perhaps all could now just move on instead?

I don't think it would matter IF the op had been in dire straights or not. Resorts have HEARD ALL THE SAD EXCUSES IN THE WORLD from owners wanting to quit paying maintenance fees. Resorts can't be held responsible for what goes on in an owner's life just as any loan company or financial institution can't be held responsible for debts owed them by borrowers with sad life stories/circumstances.

Carvana and I are not at war, we just have completely different views as to how the op should handle the matter .... it's the nature of forums.

I don't believe in coming up with excuses or schemes in order to not pay my debts .... it's as simple as that.

Last edit by jayjay on Dec 02, 2008 08:37 AM.

Avatar for jayjay jayjay

6 years ago
Dec 02, 2008

What happens if you just stop PAYING?

I think the main message being put forth here is honest and open communication. You can't get blood from a stone and sometimes there is simply no money for things you've made a prior commitment to. Cars get reposesed, homes get foreclosed on, ship happens. Think of where a timeshare is on the hierarchy of needs. Comes a point of taking care of your family, your kids, your home, if a choice has to made,timeshare will surely get cut loose. This forum is full of people who have made mistakes. Made a mistake buying, got suckered into an upfront fee, everyday there is a new story. When confronted with a debt and a stressful situation, many people withdraw. Tell the bill collectors tomorrow, next week, next month, just trying to push off the inevitable. Sadly with huge MF fees that only go in one direction and the initial purchase, foreclosure is the only way out for some. Call them irresponsible, call them living beyond their means, call it what you want, again, stuff happens. Many are willing to take a hit to their credit record just to dig themselves out of a hole. They're willing to pay 10% on their next car loan just to rid themselves of this albatross. All that being said, what is being advocated here is communication. Like going to a creditor before/instead of declaring bankruptcy. They stand up and listen because at this point you are calling the shots. They're faced with getting nothing, so they listen and will often work something out. Resorts pay a lot of money in collection fees; if it is your intent absolutely not to pay, best to be open with them. Maybe they can change terms, stop late fees, suggest alternatives, whatever. Maybe they'll save money in invoking foreclosure. Again, it could be in their best interest too. You're right, resorts have heard it all, as have most creditors. They can, within certain means, push for their money, but when there is no money, what then? Best you know your rights, be honest and up front with your dealings. There are WAY too many people who have got suckered in one way or another with time shares, even the most wiley of veterans on here will admit to mistakes. "My first TS was from the developer..." This is an industry that often preys on the week, they sell you a dream....once sold, they, many of the same people who sold you the dream, will relieve you of a "nightmare." This is no coincidence, people who bought on emotion are the same people who will pay up front fees to rid themselves of the same, again, based on emotion. It's refreshing to know what your rights are and go into battle with some ammunition.

Avatar for daves250 daves250

6 years ago
Dec 02, 2008

You are entirely correct, putting food on the table is the #1 priority and vacation ownership will be put on the back burner, BUT that will not keep a resort from foreclosing on a timeshare if maintenance fees aren't paid JUST because it's a timeshare.

Avatar for jayjay jayjay

6 years ago
Dec 02, 2008

Cease fire requested...

I agree with Ken that this discussion absent more facts from Joseph should end. This will be my last comment on the subject.

My life's work has caused me to attend many "creditor's hearings" (Section 417 of the Bankruptcy Code) where the debtor is required to share with the judge and his/her creditors "ALL THE SAD EXCUSES IN THE WORLD" for being unable to pay his/her contractual debts. This is something that anyone who has not experienced deprivation should experience. It is difficult for one who has never had to prioritize bills on payday to empathise with those whose income has been cut for whatever reason. Attending a Section 417 hearing would soften anyone's view of those they casually call "deadbeats". The economic downturn we are experiencing may provide some opportunities for Jayjay and others to see that all people who do not pay their debts are not "deadbeats" including those who do not pay their maintenance fees

I have just edited these comments to remove any sexist comment. My wife read my earlier comments and said "oh no! so I have revised them. I apologize to anyone I offended.

Last edit by carvana on Dec 02, 2008 01:23 PM.

Avatar for carvana carvana

6 years ago
Dec 02, 2008

Cease fire requested...

carvana wrote:
"ALL THE SAD EXCUSES IN THE WORLD" for being unable to pay his/her contractual debts. This is something that Jayjay should experience and possibly it would soften her view of the world. I am sure she has been blessed with a husband that has provided well for her and she has not personally experienced any deprivation. The economic downturn we are experiencing may provide some opportunities for her to see that all people who do not pay their debts are not "deadbeats" including those who do not pay their maintenance fees.

We will never be put in that situation since we've always lived within our means and paid our bills on time. We haven't financed anything since we were young marrieds (except the first two houses we owned).

If we can't pay cash, it isn't bought in this household (kind of like what Dave Ramsey and Suze Orman teach). We have one credit card, which we very seldom use and have no debt on it. We paid cash for our developer bought timeshare when we didn't know anything about resales.

When I was young my dad was always worrying about bills and that constant stress was noted by me. That's when I swore I would never get in a financial situation where I'd have to endure stress concerning paying bills.

And, I'm just the messenger here concerning owing maintenance fees to HOAs and resorts. I didn't make the rules, I just merely know what the rules are at 99% of resorts. Maintenance fees are their bread and butter and if everyone quit paying, the resort would self-destruct or would leave a huge burden on those that do pay.

Avatar for jayjay jayjay

6 years ago
Dec 02, 2008

What happens if you just stop PAYING?

my goodness, you guys like to argue, don't you? I am Joe B who posted this original thing. I tend to not want to pay money for something I don't want or need. It's simple. I no longer need this timeshare, and I don't want to send them $800 a year any more. (I've owned this thing over 22 years now, without any problems).

What bothers me is this: first of all, Vistana (my resort) has had my unit listed for sale ($17,000, they said) for about five years now. Not ONCE have they contacted me about ANYTHING regarding my unit for sale. I am a real estate appraiser. I know that my unit has no value, unless I SELL it. Meaning, ram it down someone's throat with a sales pitch. I wouldn't do that. I've tried to give it away--no takers. Clearly, there is no value here. Why, then, does Vistana continue SELLING these things? For the money, obviously. But what they are doing is, to me, a crime. Not in the legal sense, but in the moral sense.

I just don't want to send them any more money. It's not right.

As a side note, they remodeled my unit (not at my request; the unit was fine), and want $2,500 from me, in five easy annual installments. Just WHEN do they stop sucking me (us) dry? They can have the unit back, I don't care. I just think that what they are doing is wrong, and where will it end?

I wish I could get a lawyer to tell me what will, or could, happen to me. That's why I posted in the first place.

Avatar for josephb172 josephb172

6 years ago
Dec 02, 2008

I can't sell, I can't sell, I can't give it away. Why is it developers can sell these at ten times what they resell for and owners can't give them away afterwards? The people who buy, I know for a fact that they aren't all neophytes who got fleeced by an evil empire who could sell ice to Eskimos. You bought something, you overpaid, and now you want out....at any cost. So what you paid big bucks for you can't sell? Can't give away? So the last person to buy a timeshare was you? Simply put, if you bought a timeshare, you can sell a timeshare. You owned it for 22 years without problems, can't be that bad that you have to ram it down someone's throat. I'm sure you have many fond memories within those 22 years. At what point did you realize that it wasn't going to sell at $17,000 by the resort? 6 months? 1 year? 3 years? This would be like asking my car dealer to sell my '94 Sunfire for $12,000 that I bring to him every month for $400 of repairs and maintenance. "Yeah, we got it for sale, but so far no takers." There's a lot of wiggle room between $17,000 and defaulting on payments. As I say, there is a lot of emotions involved in giving back a timeshare...anger resentment etc., "Keep the damn thing, I don't want, I don't care about my credit." If it is your absolute final decision to give it back, I would go through steps listed. I'm always shocked at stories like the $2500 fee you got assessed. My condo has budgets for things like these. Life expectancy of everything from roofs to lawn chairs. They even factor in expected foreclosures, the cost of them, and the resulting loss of revenue.

Avatar for daves250 daves250

6 years ago
Dec 02, 2008

Cease fire requested...

jayjay wrote:
Maintenance fees are their bread and butter and if everyone quit paying, the resort would self-destruct.

It would also self destruct if it relied on everybody to pay 100% upfront. I understand what you're saying and commend you on your fiscal responsability, but if everyone adhered to this practice, there would be very few timeshares that are bought out there. Any business model has a bumper for bad debt. Well run resorts anticipate this sort of thing and budget for them.

Avatar for daves250 daves250

6 years ago
Dec 02, 2008

What happens if you just stop PAYING?

josephb172 has now resurfaced, stating...: >> I wish I could get a lawyer to tell me what will, or could, happen to me. That's why I posted in the first place.<< ================================================

With all due respect Joe, I believe that you have already received exactly such input spelled out for you in some detail. Have you actually read through all of the posts? In short summary (offered as my FINAL input to this particular thread):

1. You haven't indicated in either post if you have contacted the resort directly (in writing) to formally inquire if you can negotiate a "deedback". Probably not, but have you even asked or tried?

2. Absent resolution of the matter via item 1, the matter of your unpaid fees will ultimately be turned over to collections, probably to a third party collection agency.

3. If collection efforts yield no payment results or acceptable arrangements for same, you will simply be foreclosed upon. That foreclosure will, in all likelihood, ultimately appear as a less than stellar entry on your credit rating / report. Those effecting the actual foreclosure will see to that, as the foreclosure process involves expenditure of time, effort and incurring legal expenses by the resort.

There is not much more to it than that (assuming that there is no unpaid loan involved). You have a contractual obligation from which you cannot just unilaterally stroll away without enduring the legal consequences. Whether or not you see those inevitable legal consequences as ominous or daunting or troublesome to you is a matter for your own introspection. In any case, I wish you well.

Last edit by ken1193 on Dec 02, 2008 02:47 PM.

Avatar for ken1193 ken1193

6 years ago
Dec 02, 2008

ken1193 wrote:
With all due respect Joe, I believe that you have already received exactly such input spelled out for you in some detail. Have you actually read through all of the posts? In short summary (offered as my FINAL input to this particular thread):

1. You haven't indicated in either post if you have contacted the resort directly (in writing) to formally inquire if you can negotiate a "deedback". Probably not, but have you even asked or tried?

2. Absent resolution of the matter via item 1, the matter of your unpaid fees will ultimately be turned over to collections, probably to a third party collection agency.

3. If collection efforts yield no payment results or acceptable arrangements for same, you will simply be foreclosed upon. That foreclosure will, in all likelihood, ultimately appear as a less than stellar entry on your credit rating / report. Those effecting the actual foreclosure will see to that, as the foreclosure process involves expenditure of time, effort and incurring legal expenses by the resort.

There is not much more to it than that (assuming that there is no unpaid loan involved). You have a contractual obligation from which you cannot just unilaterally stroll away without enduring the legal consequences. Whether or not you see those inevitable legal consequences as ominous or daunting or troublesome to you is a matter for your own introspection. In any case, I wish you well.

Ken's steps above are 100% on the mark. When we were ready to sell our developer bought timeshare, we also contacted the resale department of our resort. They quoted the same price that we paid and we signed a contract with them to sell it.

Needless to say, they weren't interested in reselling our week, and, as far as I know, never even tried. The resort was in active developer sales and still is and that's their first concern, not resales. I'm almost certain Vistana is the same way.

I ended up selling all 9 of my timeshares myself over internet timeshare ad sites such as Redweek and others. I eventually sold them all.

Have you tried perusing Redweek and all timeshare ad sites such as Tug classified ads, MyResortNetwork, Bidshares, Ebay etc. to see what comparable weeks at your resort have SOLD for (don't pay attention to asking prices as most people ask far too much for their timeshare). I sold my developer bought timeshare for about 1/4 of what I paid the developer losing thousands (that's typical).

I have written Brian at Tug to ask him to start putting a sold sign on all timeshares in their classifieds that have been sold so that other owners at a resort will know in what ballpark to ask in price. Redweek already does this.

Last edit by jayjay on Dec 02, 2008 03:29 PM.

Avatar for jayjay jayjay

6 years ago
Dec 02, 2008

ken1193 wrote:

With all due respect Joe, I believe that you have already received exactly such input spelled out for you in some detail. Have you actually read through all of the posts? In short summary (offered as my FINAL input to this particular thread):

1. You haven't indicated in either post if you have contacted the resort directly (in writing) to formally inquire if you can negotiate a "deedback". Probably not, but have you even asked or tried?

2. Absent resolution of the matter via item 1, the matter of your unpaid fees will ultimately be turned over to collections, probably to a third party collection agency.

3. If collection efforts yield no payment results or acceptable arrangements for same, you will simply be foreclosed upon. That foreclosure will, in all likelihood, ultimately appear as a less than stellar entry on your credit rating / report. Those effecting the actual foreclosure will see to that, as the foreclosure process involves expenditure of time, effort and incurring legal expenses by the resort.

There is not much more to it than that (assuming that there is no unpaid loan involved). You have a contractual obligation from which you cannot just unilaterally stroll away without enduring the legal consequences. Whether or not you see those inevitable legal consequences as ominous or daunting or troublesome to you is a matter for your own introspection. In any case, I wish you well.

Like Jayjay, I agree 100% with what Ken has said above. Ken succinctly stated in a few words what I was saying to Joseph and others who are having trouble selling their timeshare. There are consequences to not paying the maintenance fees but one does not have to endure "hounding" from collectors.

It is difficult to explain the difference between an "in rem" obligation (maintenance fee) and a "personal obligation" (home loan, car loan) to a non-lawyer and this concept is especially difficult for Jayjay (based on her responses to my earlier advice to Joseph) to understand. These debts are not the same no matter how many "experts" on "TUG" have declared them to be the same. Certainly one can and will lose his/her timeshare if the MFs are not paid and that is because we all purchased our timeshares subject to the declaration on file that provided for such action. On one timeshare I sold the resort asked for a signed acknowledgment from my buyer that he understood he was responsible for the MFs. I handled the closing and provided the resort a copy of the sales contract and the deed but I did not provide a copy of anything signed by the buyer acknowleging the MFs. The resort changed their ownership records anyway. They had no choice.

Jayjay you say you owned 9 timeshares at various times. I suspect you are a meticulous record keeper and I challenge you to go back through those records and find a document where you specifically signed a document on the "dotted line" obligating yourself personally to pay the maintenance fees. I have purchased several timeshares resale and have never signed such an agreement and none is to be found among my timeshare records. My deeds all refer to a declaration on file and reference to the declaration assures me I will lose the timeshares if I fail to pay the maintenance fees. I have always paid my MFs and will never advice anyone - I am not a financial advisor - to default on their MFs. I have and will continue to provide advice to those who cannot pay their fees and have been unable to sell or give away their timeshare.

Most personal bankruptcies are filed due to medical expenses often in the seven figure range. None of us, including Jayjay, can definitely say that we will never experience a catastrophic illness that will not destroy us financially.

Last edit by carvana on Dec 02, 2008 04:12 PM.

Avatar for carvana carvana

6 years ago
Dec 02, 2008

Message deleted.

Avatar for roxannel15 roxannel15

6 years ago
Dec 02, 2008

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