Manhattan Club Lawsuit

Nathan, I agree with everything you have to say. I am grateful you have said it. In my opinion, you have done so in a respectful and intelligent manner. I continue to check in with the site but find I have my limit with the constant negativity. I skip over a lot, but that editing process takes time, effort and takes it's toll. It seems the forum has been taken over by bullies, the Zimmerman contingent and those who want to continue to vent ad infinitum. Occasionally there is something worthwhile to be gleaned but not much. I have noticed that a lot of people who used to post, no longer do? Gee, I wonder why??

nathanz2 wrote:

Karl,

I appreciate your point of view. There are many legitimate grievances against TMC. However nursing those grievances and refusing to acknowledge the reality that a settlement has been reached and accepted by the AG is not helpful. Excoriating the past or present AG and verbally abusing members of their staff who have attempted to help us within the limits of their authority is not productive. Whatever criminal acts may have taken place, there were no charges, no trials or convictions. I respect people's right to hold an opinion, but I am not required to respect that opinion, particularly when it is asserted as unassailable fact.

I don't know how long you have been on this thread. Ask yourself how many people have come, seen the strong language and hostile environment and moved on. If you are not part of the echo chamber you get accused of being a troll or plant. How much stronger would we be if all those folks had stayed involved?

There is an attorney working to represent the interests of those who have retained him. Let him do his work. You think my comments are boorish? Online etiquette should spare the rest of us the venting, the search for "plants," the arguing over who understands what. People are saying things about the lawsuit that no attorney would ever say. How is any of this useful?

Perhaps I haven't expressed myself to your liking. I'm sorry. I stand by my content.

To your last Point Chris--it is strange and undaunting as you say. But the situation was created by those of you not paying your maintenance fees. I am glad they are getting a few dollars rather than let the suites sit empty.

Quotes from the NYAG Investigation papers:

Urban had the right to rent rooms that remained unreserved 48 hours prior to a particular date to the general public. Under the seventh restated plan, Urban was prohibited from allowing the general public to reserve a Manhattan Club room more than 48 hours in advance.

In April 2015, Maritza Gould, a current employee of the Timeshare Association, testified about her job duties from 2010 to mid-2014. Gould testified that she was responsible for making reservations for the general public, also known as the Manhattan Club’s “transient” business. Gould testified that the general public’s preferred “booking window” was 14 to 30 days ahead of a desired check-in date, but that the general public had the option of booking as far as six to nine months ahead of the desired check-in date.

On June 16, 2015, NYAG ran a report through Sponsor’s database concerning transient rentals, and generated a 94-page report covering reservations made to non-owners. The report shows hundreds of reservations made by the general public more than 48 hours in advance of the desired check-in date, in violation of the seventh restated plan.

All reservations by the general public from August 6, 2008 to May 24, 2012 made more than 48 hours in advance of a desired check-in date violated the terms set forth in the seventh restated plan.

williamm465 wrote:

To your last Point Chris--it is strange and undauntinv as you say. But the situation was created by those of you not paying your maintenance fees. I am glad they are getting a few dollars rather than let the suites sit empty.

williamm465 wrote:

To your last Point Chris--it is strange and undaunting as you say. But the situation was created by those of you not paying your maintenance fees. I am glad they are getting a few dollars rather than let the suites sit empty.

I can't agree with your statement and feel it is inflammatory. People were scammed and defrauded. Many of us spent hours upon hours, calling, writing letters to the AG and judges. And 4 years waiting for a settlement. The first meager checks were doled out to a few last August and we still are waiting another year and half to see the rest of the outcome of the settlement which does not seem promising, especially with the possibility of Bluegreen taking over. Each person has to do what they feel is right for themselves and their circumstances, even if that includes not paying their fees. People were ripped off and lied to and our justice system has failed us. Paying or not paying the fees wouldn't be an issue if this fraud had never occurred. I pay my fees and enjoy the club, but I don't fault others for choosing not to pay if that is the only way they can feel some satisfaction with a terrible situation. However, to continue venting and bullying is not the purpose of this forum and is not constructive and divides us. It makes a bad situation worse.

hello deborah s,

your comments leave room for differences of opinion, e.g., to pay MF or not, which is a noteworthy quality. also of note are comments on this forum that appear to defend TMC practices and issues that have hurt most of us owners so badly, especially financially. this is another difference of opinion, but not the type that is shared by those opposed to being continuously defrauded and scammed.

deborahs528 wrote:

williamm465 wrote:

To your last Point Chris--it is strange and undaunting as you say. But the situation was created by those of you not paying your maintenance fees. I am glad they are getting a few dollars rather than let the suites sit empty.

I can't agree with your statement and feel it is inflammatory. People were scammed and defrauded. Many of us spent hours upon hours, calling, writing letters to the AG and judges. And 4 years waiting for a settlement. The first meager checks were doled out to a few last August and we still are waiting another year and half to see the rest of the outcome of the settlement which does not seem promising, especially with the possibility of Bluegreen taking over. Each person has to do what they feel is right for themselves and their circumstances, even if that includes not paying their fees. People were ripped off and lied to and our justice system has failed us. Paying or not paying the fees wouldn't be an issue if this fraud had never occurred. I pay my fees and enjoy the club, but I don't fault others for choosing not to pay if that is the only way they can feel some satisfaction with a terrible situation. However, to continue venting and bullying is not the purpose of this forum and is not constructive and divides us. It makes a bad situation worse.

Hi Deborah! Thanks for your kind words. I understand if owners don’t pay their maintenance fees. It is as you say, an individual decision. But it is not without consequences. Not paying fees prevents the owner from using the property. The MC management has a fiduciary responsibility to secure as much revenue as possible for the owner’s association to maintain the property, by renting out the units which can’t be used by non-paying owners; and those owners are still responsible for any shortfall. And as more owners stop paying, more time becomes available this way. Because MF’s are cumulative in effect. You can’t pay this year and forget about last year if you didn’t pay. Now I know in many cases owners were deprived of use. But the NYAG Settlement makes all that besides the point. And I’m sure there are many more owners who just want out because it doesn’t suit their budget or lifestyle anymore, or because they inherited something they don’t want. Those owners are hoping for any excuse to get out. Those are very different issues from ours, and I doubt that any one “solution” is going to work for everyone. Someone will always be unhappy with the outcome and feel wronged.

I like you have always paid my fees but this year decided not to. I took RCI points as part of my TS when I purchased as I don’t live in the US. I’ve just been informed by RCI that due to my non payment to TMC that I can no longer use these points even though my RCI fees are up to date.

I believe you Nikki. I don’t work for RCI, but I thought their fees were just transfer fees. If you haven't paid MC, you probably don’t have any points to transfer. But I’d check with them, don’t take my word for it.

Has anyone out there used the Wesley Financial Group, LLC to get out of their Manhattan Club timeshare. We own a seven day timeshare but no longer want to pay such exorbitant annual maintenance fees. This firm seem to have a stellar record in getting clients out from under. Bob M

williamm465 wrote:

To your last Point Chris--it is strange and undaunting as you say. But the situation was created by those of you not paying your maintenance fees. I am glad they are getting a few dollars rather than let the suites sit empty.

In 1995 the Sponsor Ian Bruce Eichner alias Urban LLC entered into the contract with the TMC Board, where 4 out of 7 members were the Sponsors' members. The President, CEO, and the only employee of Urban was the one person, Mr. I. B. Eichner, until the year 2014, when the NAYG launched the Investigation. Pursuant to the Offering Plan, originated by the Sponsors-Eichners, Urban was authorized to offer the MC rooms to the general public within 48 hours prior to the check-in date. That provision was violated in all the times because Urban made available rooms for outside public any time of the year.

Pursuant to the NYAG Investigation, from 2012 to 2014, Urban - Eihner collected into his own pocket from outside renting-

In 2012 - $4,063,947.03;

In 2013 - $3,724,611.54;

In 2014 - $4,232,763.33.

Above renting out, Urban - I. B. Eichner collected each year 20% of the TMC revenue which is about $ 6.3 millions.

Therefore, I. B. Eichner pocketed, at least-

In 2012 - $ 10, 363,947.03;

In 2013 - $ 11. 024,611.54;

In 2014 - $ 10, 532,763.33.

Continuation in sales of the TMC interests via the Sponsors' O. Park Central and T. Park Central raised more money for I.B. Eichner. It's still unknown whether the purchased money have been delivered to the TMC or stayed pocketed by Eichners'.

@William465: why don't you request I. B. Eichner to return the stolen money instead of demanding the owners to cover the Eichners' fraud by paying their MC dues? These stolen money, more than $ 32 millions, would keep the MC in business and protect your personal desire to stay with the MC.

I’m appalled if the numbers are correct. Why isn’t Eichner behind bars?

Thank you Fibo N for this very accurate, pointed summary of exactly why TMC is in the financial crisis they are in and why all of us owners now have a worthless piece of “property” that they paid thousands and thousands of dollars for (in my case $59,000) and cannot “use and enjoy” as William465 can do. Yes William465, you are correct that the AG investigation is over and restitution has been paid. A measly $6.5 as opposed to the $32M Eichner received is not justice! Keep paying your MF so those who do use and enjoy TMC can continue to do so.

fibon wrote:

williamm465 wrote:

To your last Point Chris--it is strange and undaunting as you say. But the situation was created by those of you not paying your maintenance fees. I am glad they are getting a few dollars rather than let the suites sit empty.

In 1995 the Sponsor Ian Bruce Eichner alias Urban LLC entered into the contract with the TMC Board, where 4 out of 7 members were the Sponsors' members. The President, CEO, and the only employee of Urban was the one person, Mr. I. B. Eichner, until the year 2014, when the NAYG launched the Investigation. Pursuant to the Offering Plan, originated by the Sponsors-Eichners, Urban was authorized to offer the MC rooms to the general public within 48 hours prior to the check-in date. That provision was violated in all the times because Urban made available rooms for outside public any time of the year.

Pursuant to the NYAG Investigation, from 2012 to 2014, Urban - Eihner collected into his own pocket from outside renting-

In 2012 - $4,063,947.03;

In 2013 - $3,724,611.54;

In 2014 - $4,232,763.33.

Above renting out, Urban - I. B. Eichner collected each year 20% of the TMC revenue which is about $ 6.3 millions.

Therefore, I. B. Eichner pocketed, at least-

In 2012 - $ 10, 363,947.03;

In 2013 - $ 11. 024,611.54;

In 2014 - $ 10, 532,763.33.

Continuation in sales of the TMC interests via the Sponsors' O. Park Central and T. Park Central raised more money for I.B. Eichner. It's still unknown whether the purchased money have been delivered to the TMC or stayed pocketed by Eichners'.

@William465: why don't you request I. B. Eichner to return the stolen money instead of demanding the owners to cover the Eichners' fraud by paying their MC dues? These stolen money, more than $ 32 millions, would keep the MC in business and protect your personal desire to stay with the MC.

William, you have it backwards. The "situation" was created by TMC....Eichner et al. They started this game of fraud and deceipt from the beginning, long before people stopped paying. It's the REASON people stopped paying. The maintenance fees started rising astronomically, despite having been told they wouldn't , all the while not being able to use the time that we were paying for...unless MAYBE if we booked 9 to 12 months in advance.. and even then I couldn't get the exact dates that we wanted or needed, which was not what we were told and sold. And then we caught wind of the AG's sting investigation ...and the fraud and deceit that was uncovered (and BTW, that they ended up stipulating and admitting to) and the realization that we were duped from the beginning... outright lied to and PLAYED. We were keeping our end of the bargain by paying year after year..and they didn't keep any part of theirs. THAT'S when we made the decision to stop paying. We had been used, taken advantage of and lied to long enough. No more throwing good money after bad. My husband and I just chalked it up as the worst financial decision we've ever made in our life. THEY breached the contract not us, and we, like many others, were furious that they were using us owners to pay and support TMC and instead of giving us what we were paying for, they stole from us...rented OUR rooms, OUR time.. to the general public, in essence, double-dipping. And worse than that... the money that they were getting for the rentals was not going into the HOA, it was going in their pockets. And that's on top of the 6.5 million that they were skimming off the top every year!. So please, tell me again...WHO created this situation???

Debra,

Either, Eichner et al created a $10 million a year conspiracy which the NYAG decided it would rather settle with than prosecute; or Eichner's lawyers outmaneuvered the AG in structuring the Manhattan Club and its interlocking functionalities and then negotiating his exit; or perhaps the forensic accounting leaves out more than a few organizational details and legalities in an effort to simplify the cash flow and throw all the blame on the developer. Mostly, owners let themselves get sold a dream that turned into an expensive nightmare. Since then timeshare market has mostly collapsed and with it all those dreams. Thirty years in, maintenance is getting expensive. Why is that such a surprise?

So what are you going to do now? We - that means all of us - have to get past this bitterness - and make the MC structure more owner-friendly! I hear there is a lawyer working on that.... and elections coming up.

You are correct. If you don't pay your maintenance fees with TMC for any given year, you don't have any time/weeks/points to deposit with RCI for that time. The annual fee that you are paying to RCI is just for membership, to be able to deposit and exchange .

hello debra,

a simple point of information: i continue to be concerned about "plants" on this forum; no finger pointing, mind you.

debral251 wrote:

William, you have it backwards. The "situation" was created by TMC....Eichner et al. They started this game of fraud and deceipt from the beginning, long before people stopped paying. It's the REASON people stopped paying. The maintenance fees started rising astronomically, despite having been told they wouldn't , all the while not being able to use the time that we were paying for...unless MAYBE if we booked 9 to 12 months in advance.. and even then I couldn't get the exact dates that we wanted or needed, which was not what we were told and sold. And then we caught wind of the AG's sting investigation ...and the fraud and deceit that was uncovered (and BTW, that they ended up stipulating and admitting to) and the realization that we were duped from the beginning... outright lied to and PLAYED. We were keeping our end of the bargain by paying year after year..and they didn't keep any part of theirs. THAT'S when we made the decision to stop paying. We had been used, taken advantage of and lied to long enough. No more throwing good money after bad. My husband and I just chalked it up as the worst financial decision we've ever made in our life. THEY breached the contract not us, and we, like many others, were furious that they were using us owners to pay and support TMC and instead of giving us what we were paying for, they stole from us...rented OUR rooms, OUR time.. to the general public, in essence, double-dipping. And worse than that... the money that they were getting for the rentals was not going into the HOA, it was going in their pockets. And that's on top of the 6.5 million that they were skimming off the top every year!. So please, tell me again...WHO created this situation???

Fibo N, can you share with us where you found this information? I presume it was in the investigation paperwork which is public records for all to look at?

ZIMMERMAN IS THE ONLY SHOT AT CLAWING BACK A SETTLEMENT FOR ONLY THOSE WHO HE HAS BEEN PAID TO REPRESENT. $1250 SEEMS TO BE RATHER CHEAP INVESTMENT TO BE PART OF A POTENTIALLY LARGE SETTLEMENT . THOSE THAT DONT JOIN IN MAY HAVE GIVEN UP RIGHTS TO ANY POTENTIAL VICTORY. ZIMMERMAN DOES NOT NEED MANY TO JOIN AS HIS REAL PAYDAY IS IN THE CONTINGINCY PERCENTAGE. NO MATTER HOW YOU FEEL ABOUT MF , WE HAVE ALL BEEN WRONGED AND HAVE NOTHING TO SHOW FOR OUR INVESTMENT VALUE. STILL WAITING FOR ANYONE TO EXPLAINE WHY EVERYONE ISNT JOINING IN THE LAST FIGHT

SIDNEY

There must be many reasons people don't join Zimmerman. I for one am happy with my situation. Sure, I wish the fees were not going up so much. (I will probably be accused of being a plant.)

I guess that most owners do not know about Zimmerman. Why? Most don't subscribe to Red Week. I guess that's why you are trying to get the owners list. I have mixed feelings about that. It would be nice to communicate with other owners, for lots of reasons. However, can you imagine how often Chris V. would call, email, write (in ALL CAPS) other owners? Do owners have an expectation of privacy? I don't know the answer to that.

Some are so sure that the rental income goes into Eichner's pocket. How do you know this? If true, it seems that it could be the basis for legal action.

Nathan, I'm not bitter...just stating my reasons and the thought process in my very personal decision to stop paying. I WAS bitter when I was paying more money than I ever thought I would for something that I was deriving no benefit from...and felt so much better when we made the decision to finally stop. As Deborah so nicely stated, it's a personal decision..and no one should be judged for it. Me being judged for not paying would be like me telling all of you who ARE paying that you are fools for doing so. But I respect everyone's decision to do what they have to do for themselves. What DOES annoy me..and the reason I felt the need to post...are people like William who state over and over that those of us not paying created this situation...and that's not true. I think it's been made very clear who created this... So please...everyone..STOP the finger pointing and judging people for their decisions. Pay or don't pay, join Zimmernan or don't...sell, give back or hold out. I wish everyone the best in whatever it is they decide to do...for themselves.