sELLING MY TIMESHARE

bernards15 wrote:

I own several weeks at the manhattan club in NYC that I purchased for about 42k/week in 2005. I've noticed that resales are going for about half that amount. The manhattan is still selling units for 42K. I would like to sell some weeks but am a bit confused about the economics. How can the club sell for its price when so many resales are available for far less.

thanks

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I don't know much about the Manhattan Club (except that it is very popular) or about about the figures which you've cited. However, this exact same phenomenon occurs virtually every single day in timeshare facilities everywhere in which the developer has not yet sold all available weeks / units.

I'm willing to bet that when you bought initially, you were either entirely unaware of the existence of a resale market at all (or, perhaps, at that time there simply were no resales yet available there). No timeshare salesman has EVER said to a buyer, "Why don't you search out the resale market first and pay just 15 to 50% of what you'll pay if you buy from me?" It just doesn't happen. Unfortunately, that initial developer sale figure will never again be attained (nor any figure even remotely near it) later in the resale or "secondary" market.

Some "company" outfits have developed cute little ways to attempt to artificially preserve and promote (too high) developer selling prices. "Elite" programs, "VIP" status, "Bonus" points and "Reward" programs, etc. (which are only available through developer purchase and NOT subsequently available to resale buyers) are all different flavors of these thinly disguised efforts to keep developer prices pumped up high and to lessen interest in the resale market for the version of that particular product which lacks those particular bells and whistles. The actual real-life-application value of those "elite, VIP, bonus, reward, etc." programs is certainly open to debate....

The GOOD news here is that Manhattan Club in NYC is a popular, high demand location which you certainly won't have much difficulty selling. Unfortunately, in the resale market, you plainly and simply won't get anywhere near what you paid initially -- half, at best, in all likelihood. It's just the reality of the difference between timeshare developer pricing and resale market value.....

I've read numerous times that in developer sales, 50% of the selling prices goes to recouping the outlay for developer marketing and sales costs. Assuming that often repeated assertion to be valid, it certainly offers some insight into the immediately downward value of any given timeshare once it next becomes a product in the "resale" market.

Ken1193 wrote: I've read numerous times that in developer sales, 50% of the selling prices goes to recouping the outlay for developer marketing and sales costs. Assuming that often repeated assertion to be valid, it certainly offers some insight into the immediately downward value of any given timeshare once it next becomes a product in the "resale" market. ====== Very true, but isn't that rather like the way a new car drops in value as soon as you drive it off the lot? You can buy a used car but it lacks some of the warranties and may have "reasons for selling" that are not fully disclosed. If you own with a large points system resort group, however, it is like having access to a fleet of vehicles, some new, some older, but all in good condition and designed to fill a variety of needs. MD

adahiscout stated: >> Very true, but isn't that rather like the way a new car drops in value as soon as you drive it off the lot? You can buy a used car but it lacks some of the warranties and may have "reasons for selling" that are not fully disclosed. If you own with a large points system resort group, however, it is like having access to a fleet of vehicles, some new, some older, but all in good condition and designed to fill a variety of needs. MD<< ====================================

I had actually considered making that same automobile analogy when I first constructed my initial reply, but decided against it, feeling that it really didn't fit well. In the new car purchase, for example, there is a universlly known and openly disclosed "MSRP", and even a viewable "dealer invoice" identifying exactly what the car dealer paid the manufacturer for the car (except for undisclosed sales volume incentive rebates, often offered to the dealer by the manufacturer). Rarely will a new car ever actually be sold for "sticker price", and certainly not for any more than that amount. The purchase price then clearly lies somewhere between dealer invoice and MSRP figures. Those parameters are eminently "knowable" to (and often obtained by) the smart new car buyer.

In timeshare developer sales, on the other hand (with very few noteworthy exceptions), there is no publicly known or disclosed "sticker price". There is never a construction / marketing "recoup" figure known either. There is, in fact, really no "range" of figures ever known to the buyer at all at any time. In addition, the selling prices can often fluctuate with the sales team, the time of year, the pace of progress toward "sellout", even with the perceived solvency and /or "pain threshhold" of the individual buyer. In short, the naive buyer can (and very frequently does) pay well OVER the (not publicly disclosed) figure at which the developer "needs" to make each initial sale. Finally, the new car literally depreciates by 20% as soon as it leaves the lot because it is now officially a "used" car. The "used" timeshare, on the other hand, is not necessarily inherently worth ANY less money --- weeks, months, or even years later. It's simply that the unfortunate developer-sales buyer likely paid 50% more than "real" actual market value in the first place.

You mention points systems, which muddies this "apples and oranges" discussion a bit, but in some instances large point systems may indeed level the playing field somewhat. But..... there are so many different flavors and so many different "currencies" in the various, assorted points systems that broad generalizations are difficult to make. Some packages may have some measure of pricing consistency at the developer sales level (Marriott, maybe?). Others have absolutely no consistency or range in pricing (RCI jumps immediately to mind here as the one with which I am most familiar) -- RCI points purchase figures are just absolutely all over the map.

In the end, perhaps the only "absolute" or "one size fits all" statement is that a buyer who purchases from a developer will likely NEVER recoup anywhere near that figure later in the resale market.

In fairness, Ken, shouldn't we consider the value we receive from the use of our timeshares in addition to the income from selling them? Together, they may well equal the purchase price. (Just as we have the value of using our car plus its resale value--which very rarely equals what we paid, new OR used.)

You will probably respond that folks should buy a good "used" timeshare (As we did buy good used cars for many years!) but if NOBODY buys from the dealer, the whole industry eventually folds.

The salesman is worthy of his hire. In the case of timeshares, he is not only selling a "product" he is selling a concept and educating a prospect in a whole new field. If he and the developers did not do this, there would be no interest in buying resales either. Getting a resort's name out there, providing incentives for prospects to take a look, financing construction before the "product" is sold---these all take money and are legitimate expenses.

Should we need additional points in one of the companies we have, we would consider Resales in the future, but I am not totally sorry or ashamed to have bought from the developers. They dun good! Just don't buy a house, a car, a dog, or a timeshare that you really can't afford.

adahiscout wrote:

In fairness, Ken, shouldn't we consider the value we receive from the use of our timeshares in addition to the income from selling them? Together, they may well equal the purchase price. (Just as we have the value of using our car plus its resale value--which very rarely equals what we paid, new OR used.)

You will probably respond that folks should buy a good "used" timeshare (As we did buy good used cars for many years!) but if NOBODY buys from the dealer, the whole industry eventually folds.

The salesman is worthy of his hire. In the case of timeshares, he is not only selling a "product" he is selling a concept and educating a prospect in a whole new field. If he and the developers did not do this, there would be no interest in buying resales either. Getting a resort's name out there, providing incentives for prospects to take a look, financing construction before the "product" is sold---these all take money and are legitimate expenses.

Should we need additional points in one of the companies we have, we would consider Resales in the future, but I am not totally sorry or ashamed to have bought from the developers. They dun good! Just don't buy a house, a car, a dog, or a timeshare that you really can't afford.

The problem is that too many timeshare salespeople are dishonest. They do not properly present the product they are selling. They lead people to believe that if they purchase a particular week , they will be readily able to exchange it for any place pictured in the RCI or I.I. "dream book." They misrepresent the true likely trading power of the week. They use a lot of "smoke and mirrors" to convince the customer that they are purchaseing something far more valuable than it actually is. I hardly consider that "educating" the customer. It's more like fleecing him.

When a salesperson determines that the customer is niave and has no experience or knowledge base about timeshares, they pounce on them like vultures, attempting to sell them the least valuable off-season week at an exorbitant price.

The highly rated Royal Resorts in Cancun (Royal Mayan, Royal Islander, Royal Sands, Riyal Caribbean, and Club Internacional de Cancun aka "VCI") conduct low pressure honest, factual presentations. The prices are in writing and are non-negotiable. Prospects are encouraged to take the information home with them, discuss it with family, friends, and/or trusted professionals e.g. accountant, attorrney, or financial advisor and get in touch with the salesperson if and when they are ready to buy.

Other resorts should be compelled to adopt that type of strategy as well. About 50% of the price people pay for timeshares purchased from the developer goes toward marketing expenses, especially the commissions of the sales staff. Eliminate the high pressure sales pitch and charge the proper price, and people will not start out feeling that they have been cheated, lied to, and taken advantage of.

Developers should be building in desirable areas, not just just throwing up something in an area they know will be of limited value. Resorts in areas where there are low demand months should close down during those months and save the money spent on staffing and utilities. These worthless weeks should not be sold at all. But the greedy developers want to sell as much as possible, then move on after reaping exorbitant profits.

When a person is buying a new car, he has usually spent a lot of time researching his options, and is aware of the "going price." If he decides to buy a used car, he knows he is getting a vehicle which will have considerably less "life" left than a new one. With timeshares, there is virtually no difference between the qaulity of the unit in which he will be vacationing or exchanging, no matter what price he paid.

In case you think I am bitter about having bought a timeshare at too high a price, you're wrong. All of the weeks we own (currently 15) were bought resale at bargain prices after doing a lot of homework.

adahiscout wrote:

In fairness, Ken, shouldn't we consider the value we receive from the use of our timeshares in addition to the income from selling them? Together, they may well equal the purchase price. (Just as we have the value of using our car plus its resale value--which very rarely equals what we paid, new OR used.)

You will probably respond that folks should buy a good "used" timeshare (As we did buy good used cars for many years!) but if NOBODY buys from the dealer, the whole industry eventually folds.

The salesman is worthy of his hire. In the case of timeshares, he is not only selling a "product" he is selling a concept and educating a prospect in a whole new field. If he and the developers did not do this, there would be no interest in buying resales either. Getting a resort's name out there, providing incentives for prospects to take a look, financing construction before the "product" is sold---these all take money and are legitimate expenses.

Should we need additional points in one of the companies we have, we would consider Resales in the future, but I am not totally sorry or ashamed to have bought from the developers. They dun good! Just don't buy a house, a car, a dog, or a timeshare that you really can't afford.

We bought our first timeshare from the developer ... I blame myself for not researching all aspects of timesharing before signing on that dotted line, however we had no idea at that time that we could have bought the very exact same timeshare for 1/4 of what we paid the developer.

Having said that, we went on to buy several resales in places we like to go at very reasonable prices. Buying from the developer DID get us into timesharing, so we didn't beat ourselves up that we could have bought resale ... we just rack it up as merely an expensive lesson learned the hard way.

You are indeed correct that if no one bought developer timeshares, then there would be no resales. That's the way we look at it now.

We are not alone in that most people buy their first timeshare from the developer.

Just got back from a visit to the Fairfield/Wyndham owners site. Someone was talking there about bidding in Wyndham Daytona Beach for a song--only to have the seller refuse to deliver. Seems someone traded it in on another resort purchase and that resort gave it to the eBay seller organization. Just who has the title and pays the fees at this point seems to be exceedingly vague, though she did track down the original owner. (Not sure how!) Does not look like her bargain will pan out. MD

adahiscout wrote:

Just got back from a visit to the Fairfield/Wyndham owners site. Someone was talking there about bidding in Wyndham Daytona Beach for a song--only to have the seller refuse to deliver. Seems someone traded it in on another resort purchase and that resort gave it to the eBay seller organization. Just who has the title and pays the fees at this point seems to be exceedingly vague, though she did track down the original owner. (Not sure how!) Does not look like her bargain will pan out. MD

We just had a Seller who paid $3500 to Timeshare Relief to take his property and the ebay seller group immediately sold it for much more than that. Timeshare Closing Services closed it and sent the deed for recording and everybody was happy until they found out the property had a mortgage on it for $6300.00. So we had to bail him out and sell it for more than his mortgage. Timeshare Closing Services had to give the money back to the Buyer and re-record the deed. Really sad.

jayjay wrote:

Many timesharers use www.timesharetransfer.com . Their fee for a simple closing also includes escrow services (holding monies until transaction is complete) I don't know if their closing cost would be in your range or not. Their prices for their different services are on their webpage.

I am new at all of this, so could you tell me if the closing cost for timeshare sales comes out of the monies of the sale of the house,or do I have to pay it myself ?

joycee31 wrote:

I am new at all of this, so could you tell me if the closing cost for timeshare sales comes out of the monies of the sale of the house,or do I have to pay it myself ?

Closing costs are MOST often assumed by the timeshare buyer, but it may be negotiable (although not often). Regardless of who is paying, independent timeshare closing companies (I don't know about the "chains" practices, like Marriott, Hyatt, etc.) require advance payment and will NOT take their fees out of closing proceeds. Timeshare sales / closings are procedurally different from the sale of a house, for example, where the realtor commissions and other fees come out of closing proceeds. Generally, not so in a timeshare sale.

ken1193 wrote:

joycee31 wrote:

I am new at all of this, so could you tell me if the closing cost for timeshare sales comes out of the monies of the sale of the house,or do I have to pay it myself ?

Closing costs are MOST often assumed by the timeshare buyer, but it may be negotiable (although not often). Regardless of who is paying, independent timeshare closing companies (I don't know about the "chains" practices, like Marriott, Hyatt, etc.) require advance payment and will NOT take their fees out of closing proceeds. Timeshare sales / closings are procedurally different from the sale of a house, for example, where the realtor commissions and other fees come out of closing proceeds. Generally, not so in a timeshare sale.

90% of our closings the closing fees are paid by the Buyer at the time of closing. They are never prepaid. This applies to Hilton, Marriott, Hyatt, Westgate and all of the other resorts. Timeshare Resale Closing Services closes a lot of ours and Grand Vacation Title closes our Hilton sales. One of the scams we have heard is an advertising company that tells the Seller the upfront fee they are paying will also pay the closing costs. Not so.

timesharejudi stated in part: >> 90% of our closings the closing fees are paid by the Buyer at the time of closing. They are never prepaid.<< ================================================

I should have been more clear that I was referring directly and specifically to private resales (no company, chain, or broker involvement) when I indicated that closing companies generally require payment in advance. Having never purchased through any other avenue besides private "seller to buyer" transactions, I neglected to consider "brokered" transactions. Thanks for providing the broader view input for such other transaction situations.

joycee31 wrote:

I am new at all of this, so could you tell me if the closing cost for timeshare sales comes out of the monies of the sale of the house,or do I have to pay it myself ?

Out of the 8 resales we bought we paid for closing. When we sold those 8 the buyers paid the closing. This is usually how it works, but it can be negotiable. Closing is an independent timeshare transaction unless otherwise stipulated in the ad.

jayjay wrote:

joycee31 wrote:

I am new at all of this, so could you tell me if the closing cost for timeshare sales comes out of the monies of the sale of the house,or do I have to pay it myself ?

Out of the 8 resales we bought we paid for closing. When we sold those 8 the buyers paid the closing. This is usually how it works, but it can be negotiable. Closing is an independent timeshare transaction unless otherwise stipulated in the ad.

This is good information but if I have to pay big money out of my pocket I am screwed and in big time trouble. I am on sick leave right now and preparing for disability retirement. I am trying to download and get rid of unnecessary things to pay for out of a tight budget.

joycee31 states in part: >>....if I have to pay big money out of my pocket I am screwed and in big time trouble. I am on sick leave right now and preparing for disability retirement. << ==============================================

You certainly DON'T have to pay big money out of pocket to sell your timeshare. For less than a grand total of about $100, you can advertise your timeshare on virtually every respectable and frequently visited timeshare site on the planet. Yes, you will have to exert a little bit of effort effort in preparing your ads, but if you are not working, then surely you have the time to do that. In no intended "ranking" or "preference" order, I'd use MyResortNetwork, RedWeek, Timeshare Users Group, VacationTimeshareRentals, Bidshares (free), Craigslist (also free), even eBay. Price to sell and you'll likely succeed in doing so. Make it clear that buyer pays closing costs (which is usually the case anyhow). Good luck.

ken1193

joycee31 wrote:

states in part: >>....if I have to pay big money out of my pocket I am screwed and in big time trouble. I am on sick leave right now and preparing for disability retirement. << ==============================================

You certainly DON'T have to pay big money out of pocket to sell your timeshare. For less than a grand total of about $100, you can advertise your timeshare on virtually every respectable and frequently visited timeshare site on the planet. Yes, you will have to exert a little bit of effort effort in preparing your ads, but if you are not working, then surely you have the time to do that. In no intended "ranking" or "preference" order, I'd use MyResortNetwork, RedWeek, Timeshare Users Group, VacationTimeshareRentals, Bidshares (free), Craigslist (also free), even eBay. Price to sell and you'll likely succeed in doing so. Make it clear that buyer pays closing costs (which is usually the case anyhow). Good luck.

=================== FYI, Free listings are also available at VacationTimeshareRentals. They have two other fee based options as well. Check out all three to see what fits your needs best. Also check out the "want ads" on the Timeshare Users Group (TUG) site, at VacationTImeshareRentals and the RedWishes here on Redweek.com. See if anyone is out there looking to buy a unit at your resort.

You guys have been very helpful and I feel more hopeful now. Meanwhile, all of this talk about my timeshare has made me want to feel the sand of Maui, Hawaii. Many of my coworkers are there for the Christmas holidays and I have to wait until summer because I am recovering from spinal surgery.

I don't know if I am allowed to say this on this site, but I have been sent a list of no up front fee companies.

joycee31 wrote:

I don't know if I am allowed to say this on this site, but I have been sent a list of no up front fee companies.

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Your posting has apparently been edited by the moderator, probably to delete actual company names, which I guess is RedWeek prerogative if posting that info is regarded as advertising.

However, aside from company names, a critically important point you have NOT addressed is......SENT BY WHOM???

Whenever the Internet and unknown sources are involved, do exactly as those street signs suggest: PROCEED WITH CAUTION!!

julieh18 wrote:

AVOID JRA

JRA services handled my first resale purchase. They didn't get the grant deed recorded correctly and after two years the tax bill is still in the previous owners name. I contacted Janet Amarrati to get this fixed. She has never called me back. I have no way to get ahold of the previous owner so I'm stuck. I wouldn't use JRA nor could I recommend them!!

Please do not avoid JRA Services, Inc. We have been in business for over a decade and have handled many many many timeshare closings sucessfully. I don't believe that the deed was recorded incorrectly, I believe that there was a problem with the tax assessor's office, not with the recording department. We don't normally get involved with the tax assessor's office. I would ask that the new owner please contact me at janet@timeshareresaleclosings.com, or 954-718-7076, and we can revisit the issue with this closed file. I am happy to try and assist and clear up any problems. Our customer satisfaction is our number one goal.