Need for escrow

karik,

Thanks for disclosing your affiliation.

Mike,

There are three types of companies we've been discussing: - Escrow - Title - Closing Plus having a lawyer do the work, or doing it on your own.

- Buying/Selling your home generally involves a closing process where a title company researches and insures the ownership of the purchase and an escrow company coordinates all the paperwork between buyer, seller, title, legal forms required, and misc vendors. The escrow company is sometimes referred to as a closing company and often the title and escrow companies are owned by the same company, such as Fidelity, Stuart, and others.

- When buying/selling a timeshare, the process tends to be a lot more simplified. I don't know if this is because timeshare sales are not as regulated as homes, or if the value of the timeshare ends up heavily influencing the way closings are performed. One thing is for certain. The timeshare closing company performs the "same" tasks as an escrow company and if they are doing their job correctly they submit an estoppel or other verification form to the resort as well as retrieving the deed from the county (when applicable) to verify ownership and the like. Thus, a timeshare closing company also performs tasks which are similar but not the same as a title company.

A title and escrow company can perform closings for timeshares (even though they tend to use the same docs as for home closings and tend to be difficult, which is why I don't like using them), but I'm pretty confident a timeshare closing company is not quailified to perform closings for homes. Maybe they could process the escrow responsibilities but not the title.

Mike, Much of what you say is true however not all of what you say is true.

YOU SAID: When buying/selling a timeshare, the process tends to be a lot more simplified. ((SIMPLIFIED, YES, BUT I DON'T THINK THAT CAN MEAN LESS IMPORTANT)) I don't know if this is because timeshare sales are not as regulated as homes, ((OHHH, THERE IS INDEED REGULATIONS OR DEVELOPERS CAN OVERSELL A PROJECT AND THEN GET INTO DEEP KIM-CHEE IN THE COURTS----FILING FOR BANKRUPTCY AND NEVER CREATING OR ISSUING DEEDS TO THE RIGHTFUL OWNERS----WE STILL CHASE BANKRUPTCY TRUSTEES TO SIGN OFF ON DEEDS FOR OWNERS WHO NEVER RECEIVED THEIR DEEDED TIMESHARE AND WHO WANT TO SELL IT BUT CAN'T ---- BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE A DEED-------TIMESHARE DEEDS MUST HAVE CERTAIN INFORMATION IN THEM OR THEY COULD BE REJECTED FOR FILING AT THE BUREAU/LAND COURT, HERE IN HAWAII THAT IS )) or if the value of the timeshare ends up heavily influencing the way closings are performed. (( IN MY EXPERIENCE THE VALUE OF THE TIMESHARE DOES INFLUENCE TO SOME DEGREE BUT ONLY IF THE VALUE IS SO LOW THAT THE OWNER --WHO IS SELLING THE TIMESHARE -----AND DOESN'T WANT TO PAY FOR ESCROW/TITLE FEES------ DECIDES TO JUST GIVE THE TIMESHARE AWAY----A GIFT, IF YOU WILL, TO A FRIEND, FAMILY MEMBER, NEIGHBOR,WHOMEVER----IN WHICH TITLE & ESCROW IS NOT USED AND INSTEAD WE SIMPLY USE THE PROCESS FOR A GIFT TRANSFER-----REAL SIMPLE; LESS COST ETC)) One thing is for certain. The timeshare closing company performs the "same" (( BUT THEY DON'T PERFORM TITLE SEARCHES WHICH IS SIGNIFICANTLY DIFFERENT FROM AN ESTOPPEL SO YOU CAN'T SAY IT'S THE SAME)) tasks as an escrow company and if they are doing their job correctly they submit an estoppel (( ESTOPPELS ARE ONLY RELATIVE TO THE GIVEN RESORT AND OWNER----THEY DON'T SHOW ANYTHING OUTSIDE OF THIS LIKE FEDERAL TAX LIENS, ETC.)) or other verification form to the resort as well as retrieving the deed from the county (when applicable) ----to verify ownership and the like. (( SO THEY PULL A DEED FOR THE CURRENT OWNER TO SEE IF HE OWNS IT----DO THEY THEN DO A SECONDARY SEARCH FOR THAT OWNER AS A GRANTOR?????? AS IN, THE 96Y/O OWNER FORGOT THEY ALREADY GAVE IT AWAY???) Thus, a timeshare closing company also performs tasks which are similar but not the same as a title company. ((SOME CLOSING COMPANIES ACTUALLY WORK IN COOPERATION WITH TITLE & ESCROW COMPANIES----AND "WE" OFTEN END UP DRAFTING THEIR DEEDS.))

RE: HAWAII TIMESHARES----TODAY, THERE ARE STILL PEOPLE WHO OWN THEIR TIMESHARES; WHO PAY THEIR ANNUAL MAINT. FEES AND WHO STILL DON'T HAVE A DEED. LET'S TAKE WAIKIKI BANYAN----THE DEVELOPER FOLDED AND THE PROJECT WAS SPLIT UP AND ENDED WITH MULTIPLE COMPANIES....A CLIENT CALLS AND SAYS THEY WANT TO SELL, OR GIVE, THEIR TIMESHARE BUT THEY CAN'T FIND THEIR DEED. I ASK THE NAME OF THE RESORT AND AS SOON AS THEY SAY 'SWEETWATER" MY STOMACH TIGHTENS BECAUSE I KNOW WHAT'S ABOUT TO HAPPEN. HOPEFULLY THE CLIENT IS ABLE TO TELL ME THEIR UNIT NUMBER AND WEEK. WITH THAT INFO, I RESEARCH TO FIND WHAT ENTITY ENDED UP WITH THAT UNIT IN THE BANKRUPTCY COURT. THEN, ONCE FOUND (AND THIS COULD TAKE MANY HOURS) I HAVE TO PRAY THAT 'THAT' COMPANY IS STILL IN EXISTENCE AND IF THEY'RE NOT, 'WHO' HAS AUTHORITY TO SIGN A DEED GIVING PROPER TITLE TO THE RIGHTFUL OWNER SO HE/SHE CAN SELL OR GIVE IT AWAY? THIS CAN TAKE MONTHS...........I DON'T KNOW IF A TIMESHARE CLOSING COMPANY CAN -- OR KNOW WHERE TO EVEN START, TO DO THIS? DO YOU KNOW?

I'M NOT DISSING TIMESHARE CLOSING COMPANIES BUT I THINK, AS FAR AS HAWAII TIMESHARES GO, IT'S BEST LEFT TO THE PROFESSIONALS, LIKE US---ESPECIALLY SINCE HAWAII HAS A HISTORY OF MANY TIMESHARE PROJECT PROBLEMS, NOT TO MENTION OUR LAND COURT-------AN ACUTAL COURT IS INVOLVED IN MANY OF THESE DEEDS AND THEY REVIEW THESE DEEDS WITH A FLEA COMB.

FOR SOME REASON I THINK I GOT OFF TRACK....OH WELL,.

I'm Peter, not Mike!

I understand you have a very strong opinion on this matter. However, title and escrow companies have done a poor job processing my timeshare purchases. This includes failure to pay annual maintenance to the correct address and failure to correctly file a deed taking into account a deceased spouse. These errors are similar to errors made by timeshare closing companies. And all the T&E companies take forever to process my timeshare purchases. More than 4 months, as slow as or slower than most timeshare closing companies. I never see a preliminary title report either, even though I see more than enough initial docs which are more pertinent to a normal house sale.

You bring up many relevant concerns when buying property - timeshare or otherwise. However, the closing companies I've used for the timeshares I've bought in HI did the job just fine. Just because someone pays a title and escrow company doesn't mean the job will be done correctly. And now that I've seen the waivers and indemnity agreements T&E companies want me to sign before they complete the transfer I dot not believe they are as responsible for their work as you are insisting.

I appreciate your dedication to defend T&E companies even though you say you work for a lawyer or law firm. Buy your insistence that "professionals like us" are the only ones capable of doing anything correctly in HI doesn't feel accurate to me. It sounds a lot like a sales pitch. People and companies of all types do not do their jobs well. It doesn't matter if they are located in HI and are supposed to know how their local government works or they are elsewhere. People and companies willing to ensure the job is done correctly will do so.

Peter, I am just saying (when it comes to Hawaii) timeshares, BECAUSE of our unique recording systems it's best to use someone/some business/some company IN HAWAII to do your transfers. Let me tell you about today: I'm moving a timeshare from a Mr. & Mrs. Family Trust to a sibling of the Mr. Guess what? They have the name of the Trustees WRONG!!! The property is deeded to individuals as Trustees of my clients Trust. Go figure. When I asked the owner didn't you ever notice this she said yes, but she thought it was the way it was suppose to be. She didn't know who those people were either? Again, go figure.

I don't know who did her deed but I sent her back to them to have them do a CORRECTION deed.

When I see these kinds of errors, it's usually not done by a Hawaii company. People need to be a little more aware of what it is they are getting and when they see their names spelled wrong or Trustees of THEIR trust whom they don't know, they need to speak out.

A sales pitch is not my intention but if I am allowed to make sales pitches, let me know and I'll give you one. Again, the purpose of my being here to help BUYERS get it right.........and not have to go thru unceasessary expenses to correct their deeds......or to not be allowed to be taken advantage of by anyone---a sales person; a closing company, whomever.

I have two weeks in Marbesa Spain I would like to sell on Redweek.com. No USA closing company I've heard of will handle the transaction. Has anyone sold their timeshare in Spain using a reputable Spanish Notary or know of an international closing company who could handle my sale???? My understanding is Notaries in Spain have much more power and authority than we generally associate with notaries in the US and that they generally handle such timeshare transactions.

Summary: The performance of the functions of a notary public abroad for documents intended for use in the United States is governed generally by multilateral and bilateral treaties, Federal law and regulation and by the laws of the foreign country. Notarizing a document outside the United States may be a violation of the laws of the foreign country, unless the notarizing officer is specifically authorized by local (foreign) law or applicable international treaty.

Recognition of Notarial Acts Performed Abroad in the United States: The laws of states in the United States also make specific provision for the recognition of documents executed outside the United States. Most states have enacted legislation similar to the Uniform Recognition of Acknowledgements Act, the Uniform Acknowledgments Act and the Uniform Law on Notarials which recognize the admissibility of documents executed outside the United States before an ambassador, minister, consul general, consul, vice consul or consular agent of the United States.

I'm not sure if Spain is part of the treaty but there is a list somewhere on the web that shows what countries of part of this treaty. Sorry, I'd find that list for you now but I'm in a rush out the door.

Also, contact a Spanish notary and get a referral for those who deal with Spanish timeshares.

Does anyone know the process I need to follow to close a sale myself? I have sold Kahana Falls and do not want to pay a title or closing company. The buyer is fine with this idea the property is clear and free but what paperwork is required and how do I start the process?

hank62 wrote:

Does anyone know the process I need to follow to close a sale myself? I have sold Kahana Falls and do not want to pay a title or closing company. The buyer is fine with this idea the property is clear and free but what paperwork is required and how do I start the process?

I assume you could use a 'quit claim deed' for a property in Hawaii since it's part of the USA .... you can research 'quit claim deeds' via google.

Someone who owns/works for a a title/closing/legal company will probably argue HI recording is too complex for an individual to do this, I've read a few threads to this effect. In my experience both in HI and elsewhere, the "experts" are almost as likely to mess up recording as you are. My opinion on this statement reflects my experience with "closing" companies more than the other experts. A number of other professional options which might be more competent are also more expensive. If you take the time to research the history of your deed, and you should know how you took ownership, and you are a competent person, you should be capable of completing the task of recording the same of your HI timeshare to another person. HI is more particular and has a few extra rules/law regarding recording deeds. Just ask questions and read, but I think to ensure preparing a correct deed, using the one you received when you bought will put you on the right path.

The basic answer is: - Use your old deed as a template to make the new deed, ensure this is still the accepted format. - Sign it and depending on HI requirements have it notarized and or witnessed by the correct number of people - Mail it to BoC (see below) - Wait for the deed to come back as recorded or rejected, requiring revisions.

Start Here http://www.co.maui.hi.us/FAQ.aspx?QID=581

You can call the county to ask more questions, but this one site will lead to to areas where you can look up Property Tax Records, contact info for county departments, how to record documents (deed, leases, etc), and most anyhting else related to the county.

The Bureau of Conveyances handles recording http://hawaii.gov/dlnr/boc Here is a document search link https://boc.ehawaii.gov/docsearch/nameSearch.html

I don't recall if you have to pay to see an image of the recorded doc, but you can see enough detail information to verify a deed was recorded.

These links give some more info on how to record. http://hawaii.gov/dlnr/boc/fee http://hawaii.gov/dlnr/boc/AR4599.pdf http://hawaiideptland.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/hawaiideptland.cfg/php/enduser/std_alp.php

Thank you for the help! I appreciate it. I'll try closing this deal myself, it doesn't sound to hard. I purchased this unit only about 2 years ago and believe the title is clean. After I close i'll give an update for other folks

hank62 wrote:

Thank you for the help! I appreciate it. I'll try closing this deal myself, it doesn't sound to hard. I purchased this unit only about 2 years ago and believe the title is clean. After I close i'll give an update for other folks

Just make sure Hawaii will accept a quit claim deed .... they may require that you go through an attorney like some states such as South Carolina.

HI also has a few nitpicks, if I recall they began requiring the inclusion of full middle names a couple of years ago. This was a challenge for me since my legal middle name is an initial. Make certain you read all the info and ask questions. Worst case the recording will be denied until you revise the deed. The Quit Claim Deed is of course the safest deed for you as a seller to use. But it is your responsibility to convey proper ownership, if you have done your job responsibly you should be comfortable using a warranty/standard deed.

Thanks again, looks like it's getting easier all the time!

I am interested in a Westin timeshare that is part of a bankruptcy. The company handling the sale of the party's assets say they cannot use an escrow company, but that I can investigate the property and get title insurance if I wish. I ma y be able to get the timeshare for a good price, so it seems worth persuing. Can anyone recommend a good title company? Should I contact Westin to find leins against the timeshare? Any other contacts you can recommend?