Maintenance Fees Out-Of-Sight

andreal wrote:

I would find it interesting to know how much it is that people pay for maintenance fees! And if they are the same amount.

Andreal; While the maintenance fees are supposed to be evenly divided among the units, I have never asked anyone. However, I personally suspect that owners of multiple units, get a break. I am talking several weeks, as opposed to a few weeks. I have an aquaintance who owns 19 weeks at the same resort! I can't imagine that he is paying full tilt.

At my resort, there are two types of rooms. The city/pool view rooms pay $537 per year. (These rooms are all the same size.) The ocean front rooms which they call end units are slightly larger. (These rooms pay $624 per year)

jgira12 wrote:

"Having said all that, while the new insurance costs do not surprise me, I agree with a previous post that I am not sure of the increases on our Maintainance invoices and whether they are fairly applied as to number of units."

Ah yes, but this is the internet age. There now is power among the little people...the timeshare owners. We now have a medium to reveal heretofore unknown facts about our timeshares, that only board members were privy to in the past. The clandestine nature of the board is a thing of the past. We need representation that will reveal the behind the scenes discussions to all the owners. This can be accomplished on the internet forums such as the one here. Just keep reading the forums...we will find out a lot as time goes on...trust me!

YES! One of the clear advantages of the relatively inexpensive, unregulated internet is that all sorts of folks get to communicate these kind of problems toward greater public awareness and social action. It sounds like some of the posts here are from informed professionals (realtors and insurance folks) as well as from those of us who are confused but directly affected nonetheless. Let's hope we get more and more contributions to these postings. We can use the whole collection as a sort-of petition to be photocopied and sent off to legislators and others who might be able and willing to help.

Maintenance fees have two components. The room specific costs which vary by room size (as one would expect) and resort costs (i.e. swimming pool maintenance, security) which are divided by room capacity or just equally per room.

If you look at the timeshare's by-laws, which are public record and recorded with the local county's Recorder of Deeds. The formulas will be in that document.

Sorry, no resort ever gives you a copy, it's usually a 20-100 page document that is VERY dry reading. But it's been available to all to see since way before the internet for every timeshare in the USA.

My cost have gone up also, but it is not just insurance costs. Even though my resort has a policy they also have a one millioon dollar deductable on the policy that must be paid for by owners before the policy kicks in. What is more costly is the absurd rate that Florida taxes are going up. Taxes are based on proerty value and property values have spiked. This is a landfall for the state. I don't have any idea what FL is going to do with all this money, but it has to stop somewhere

john1671 wrote:

Maintenance fees have two components. The room specific costs which vary by room size (as one would expect) and resort costs (i.e. swimming pool maintenance, security) which are divided by room capacity or just equally per room.

If you look at the timeshare's by-laws, which are public record and recorded with the local county's Recorder of Deeds. The formulas will be in that document.

Sorry, no resort ever gives you a copy, it's usually a 20-100 page document that is VERY dry reading. But it's been available to all to see since way before the internet for every timeshare in the USA.

John, interesting. Sounds to me that perhaps you served on a board at one time. Am I correct? :)

Jerry

greggibson wrote:

My cost have gone up also, but it is not just insurance costs. Even though my resort has a policy they also have a one millioon dollar deductable on the policy that must be paid for by owners before the policy kicks in. What is more costly is the absurd rate that Florida taxes are going up. Taxes are based on proerty value and property values have spiked. This is a landfall for the state. I don't have any idea what FL is going to do with all this money, but it has to stop somewhere

Pretty much all properties in FL that have insurance have HUGE hurricane deductibles. The standard or norm for personal insurance is 2%. However, many people can't afford the high rates so they opt to carry an even higher deductible (5%) if their mortgage holder let's them. Commercial properties have even larger deductibles than homeowers. So, a one million dollar deductible isn't that unreal.

In case of a hurricane, the owner's must cover that deductible. So either the resort does a special assessment or many places are opting to collect extra $ to be prepared by keeping the money in a hurricane reserve fund.

Regarding the taxes in FL, you are right on - they have gone sky high. You asked, "What have they done with the $?". They spent it all. They claim it is all for the increased services they provide, but I don't see any. Homeowner's and business owner's are ready to revolt here. The governer wants to reduce taxes because of all the complaints that people can't afford to live here and businesses can't afford to stay in business. Cities and towns are complaining that they have to cut services if they are forced to cut tax rates.

Could it be that taxes have skyrocketed in Florida due to skyrocketing insurance rates that the state, all cities and all counties (not just homeowners and businesses) have to pay.

It must have been very expensive to clean up debris and repair major damage after all the hurricanes, especially the 5 in 2005? They may have very well spent it all with such major wide spread devastation and may have no reserves left for future hurricane damage. This is probably one of the main reasons for skyrocketing taxes in the state of Florida.

melanieb44 wrote:

Regarding the taxes in FL, you are right on - they have gone sky high. You asked, "What have they done with the $?". They spent it all. They claim it is all for the increased services they provide, but I don't see any. Homeowner's and business owner's are ready to revolt here. The governer wants to reduce taxes because of all the complaints that people can't afford to live here and businesses can't afford to stay in business. Cities and towns are complaining that they have to cut services if they are forced to cut tax rates.

Re; >> These Scumbag Resorts are GOUGING us again!

Once again, they are RIPPING US OFF! <<

I'm not sure that the resorts can be appropriately blamed for skyrocketing insurance rates. They don't set those rates and they have no say into those rates. They just have to pay them ---- and guess who those costs will ALWAYS be passed right along to?

That said, I for one would like to see any resort HOA at which I own "time" identify and itemize the resorts' insurance and repair costs ---clearly, in writing, and on an annual basis.

Although I personally have NO particular use for the entire insurance industry in general, if I was in their shoes I wouldn't want to underwite ANYTHING in the coastal southeastern U.S. It's a known, recurring risk which I simply would be unwilling to take. I would have said that exact same thing BEFORE Charley or Katrina.

I think most resorts charge different fee for different size and weeks rating that you bought! I would think owner of two bedroom red week would have higher fee than one bedroom in blue/white times!

As for owners that buy more than one unit at the resort it doesn't seem to get you a price break!

We were looking at buying a second unit at our Lake Tahoe Resort and asked this question on Tug. I was told no you wouldn't get a break because the fee was based on units owned then divided by total units!

This makes since but then I see no plus to owning another unit except I get to pay another $766 a year to the resort for the right to pick my weeks 24 months early instead of 23 months!

I called the resort that I have been a owner at for about 10 out of last 17 years. They agreed with what owners on Tug had told me.

Belonging to the Tug site and knowing they are the best timeshare site on line I figured they were right but just wanted to check.

We can go to our resort most anytime of year with big discounts on bonus time so unless one month earlier to pick my weeks are that important then why buy!

My wife told me we love our resort so maybe we should just buy in Maui and have both favorite places to vacation without trading.

Hi Jerry,

No, I have never been on the Board of a timeshare. I do own a good number myself and am very active in a number of discussion groups. About 14 months ago started a timeshare closing service with my brother who was the NYC Recorder of Deeds in the early 80's and in private practice RE law since.

I will admit, my personal pet peeve is the amount of time owners spend complaining yet not even reading the budget. I have been to several annual meetings and have always questioned the boards to explain various line items, particularly those with year over year increases.

I own mostly in the Caribbean. Over the last two years every one of the 15 or so I know intimately as owner have all had big increases. In each case the top three causes were insurance, energy costs, and labor.

Most Caribbean islands get 100% of their energy from oil. At home in the US, we benfit greatly as most utilities also have plants which run on cheaper coal, gas, or even some hydroelectric from Canada (I'm on the east coast). We also have about 15% of our energy here being from nuclear plants which are expensive but stable pricing.

So when oil more than doubled in under 2 years, it whacked every island.

Katrina did a number on insurance rates.

I'm not happy about it, don't misunderstand. I pay more in annual maintenance fees than 99% of the people you know becuase I own a bunch.

But I understand why and frankly, At a couple of my resorts, I even wish they would go up to fund needed capital improvements that keep getting postponed.

To second other postings, TUG is a great site which has MANY very knowledgable owners. Highly recommended, the best owners site on the web for general timeshare discussions.

As to multiple discounts, whether you own 1 or 10 you pay the same per unit. You will pay more for bigger units as they cost more to operate. You DO NOT have any difference in fees based upon your time of usage. The high and low season owners of a specific unit type ALWAYS pay the exact same. The difference in value is reflected in the purchase and sales prices only. Frankly, they both cost the same to operate, demand levels are a human, not a cost factor.

Have a great weekend all !!!

John

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john1671 wrote:

Hi Jerry,

No, I have never been on the Board of a timeshare. I do own a good number myself and am very active in a number of discussion groups. About 14 months ago started a timeshare closing service with my brother who was the NYC Recorder of Deeds in the early 80's and in private practice RE law since.

I will admit, my personal pet peeve is the amount of time owners spend complaining yet not even reading the budget. I have been to several annual meetings and have always questioned the boards to explain various line items, particularly those with year over year increases.

...To second other postings, TUG is a great site which has MANY very knowledgable owners. Highly recommended, the best owners site on the web for general timeshare discussions.

Have a great weekend all !!!

John

I owned a hotel condo back in the early days. There were a few owners who would kill to be on the board. When we checked it out, they were fleecing us. Checking the budget and expenses and who knew which outside contractor made it all clear--crystal. hahahahaha

Just like your home, your timeshare is your business. Read everything in print you can get your hands on; chat up everyone who can enlighten you. Of course, how hard was it to find out about Katrina, or know there are hurricanes down there?

Even so, our legislatures may investigate the response of the insurance companies, so read your policies, too.

The more owners that volunteer to help the association, the btter things will be. Does your HOA have its own website to educate and enlighten the owners? Volunteering to pay for and maintain the website may even be less costly than an annual trip to the HOA rodeo.

Hi Carries,

Perhaps the best thing to have is a Yahoo Discussion Group. We have one at the Wyndham Bluebeards Beach Club. Only owners can join, membership must be approved and an onwer on the Board or Directors does that and moderates the group.

We have over 520 owners out of roughly 2,000 in our discussion grouo. It is very empowering for the little guys.

Figured I'd build on your website thoughts...

john1671 wrote:

Hi Carries,

...We have over 520 owners out of roughly 2,000 in our discussion grouo. It is very empowering for the little guys.

Figured I'd build on your website thoughts...

Of course. What a good idea. The price is right, too.

C.

jons29 wrote:

First of all, I don't like it either.

But, as in any and all situations, a Company or even an individual has to somehow cover not only their losses, but anticipated losses. In the insurance industry, anticipated losses are known as risk, also known as "chances", as in "what are the chances of.....".

If you buy and sell corn/flowers/paint, etc., and know that the cost of those items will probably rise for whatever reason, you build that price increase into your cost. Therefore your selling price will also rise.

Same logic with insurance, with a simple detour. For years, insurance companies were able to keep their costs low, simply because they were making their profits in the stock market. EVERYBODY was paying less for insurance than what the risk factors indicated. But since Insurance Co.'s were making so much in the stock markets, they overlooked the risk factors.

Starting with 9/11, which brought huge losses (property, life, stocks) and continuing through all of the natural disasters since, insurance companies have decided to price insurance according to the risk's indicated and not rely on the stock market. Therefore all of us are now paying a fair share of the perceived risk involved. We, as consumers, do not share that feeling, but only because we liked the prices that we formerly paid, not the new prices. Just like gas prices.

Those who own properties in known hurricane, flood, tornado, earthquake or forest fire areas, are now paying for the actual risk involved. Just like life insurance rates for smokers and non-smokers. Risk costs money. Remember the "Dares" that we used to make, and still do. I will pay you $10 to jump off the roof. You won't do it for $10, but you will for $100. That's known as "perceived RISK", your perception of the risk, based on your knowledge of the event.

Having said all that, while the new insurance costs do not surprise me, I agree with a previous post that I am not sure of the increases on our Maintainance invoices and whether they are fairly applied as to number of units.

Bottom line; I don't like it either, but I do understand it.

Agreed! Thanks for the summation. This was an excellent posting.

jayjay wrote:

Could it be that taxes have skyrocketed in Florida due to skyrocketing insurance rates that the state, all cities and all counties (not just homeowners and businesses) have to pay.

It must have been very expensive to clean up debris and repair major damage after all the hurricanes, especially the 5 in 2005? They may have very well spent it all with such major wide spread devastation and may have no reserves left for future hurricane damage. This is probably one of the main reasons for skyrocketing taxes in the state of Florida.

melanieb44 wrote:

Regarding the taxes in FL, you are right on - they have gone sky high. You asked, "What have they done with the $?". They spent it all. They claim it is all for the increased services they provide, but I don't see any. Homeowner's and business owner's are ready to revolt here. The governer wants to reduce taxes because of all the complaints that people can't afford to live here and businesses can't afford to stay in business. Cities and towns are complaining that they have to cut services if they are forced to cut tax rates.

Hi....actually, the homeowner's insurance and the taxes are two seperate issues. One doesn't depend on the other.

The insurance has gone sky high due to the hurricanes.

The taxes are set by the local asessment person for each county. For taxes, the law is that homesteaded properties are capped at 3% each year, but non-steaded properties are not. So this is why commercial properties, landlords, snowbirds, etc. (any non-steaded property) has the tax rates skyrocketing out of control.

As far as the hurricane clean-up is concerned, we can thank FEMA for paying for most of the landscape clean-up. Landscaping, for the most part, is not insurable so many assessments were made to replace the landscaping. The special assessments due to the hurricane were ON TOP of the taxes.

melanieb44 wrote:

As far as the hurricane clean-up is concerned, we can thank FEMA for paying for most of the landscape clean-up. Landscaping, for the most part, is not insurable so many assessments were made to replace the landscaping. The special assessments due to the hurricane were ON TOP of the taxes.

I don't think it covers swimming pools either, does it?

phill12 wrote:

I think most resorts charge different fee for different size and weeks rating that you bought! I would think owner of two bedroom red week would have higher fee than one bedroom in blue/white times!

As for owners that buy more than one unit at the resort it doesn't seem to get you a price break!

We were looking at buying a second unit at our Lake Tahoe Resort and asked this question on Tug. I was told no you wouldn't get a break because the fee was based on units owned then divided by total units!

This makes since but then I see no plus to owning another unit except I get to pay another $766 a year to the resort for the right to pick my weeks 24 months early instead of 23 months!

I called the resort that I have been a owner at for about 10 out of last 17 years. They agreed with what owners on Tug had told me.

Belonging to the Tug site and knowing they are the best timeshare site on line I figured they were right but just wanted to check.

We can go to our resort most anytime of year with big discounts on bonus time so unless one month earlier to pick my weeks are that important then why buy!

My wife told me we love our resort so maybe we should just buy in Maui and have both favorite places to vacation without trading.

Phil---

Do you get a price break on Maintenance Fees if you own more at one resort? Sometimes YES.

We used to own at four different Fairfield resorts but were told that rolling them all into a single contract at one resort would reduce the MF per thousand points owned. "Single contract" seems to be the magic phrase. Multiple contracts at the same resort may not help. Unfortunately, we rolled ours all into a Florida property. Bad idea. Later we moved our points into a new contract in Las Vegas. Even though we had to buy additional NEW points to do this, the total MF is still less than before. Did something similar with Bluegreen.

How this works will vary among resort groups and the rules change from time to time. To make our Fairfield rollover would probably require a lot more new points today than it did a year ago. I think we dodged the bullet!

MD

carries25 wrote:

melanieb44 wrote:

As far as the hurricane clean-up is concerned, we can thank FEMA for paying for most of the landscape clean-up. Landscaping, for the most part, is not insurable so many assessments were made to replace the landscaping. The special assessments due to the hurricane were ON TOP of the taxes.

I don't think it covers swimming pools either, does it?

Hi Carries25,

I am not an insurance expert. However, my homeowner's policy has a line for "other structures". When I asked the insurance company what it meant, they said it was for anything I had that was not particularly attached to my dwelling. So any gazebo, fences, gates, family swing, kiddie gyms, etc. are covered. I would assume a pool is covered.

The hurricanes that I experienced did not seem to effect things low close to the ground. Many of my neighbors have pools. None of them got damaged. However, landscape debris fell into the pools and made them filthy so they needed major clean-up and removal of landscape pieces that fell in it.