Timeshares is good investment or not.

ken1193 wrote:

I must say that in my 25+ years of timeshare ownership, the above is the first time I've ever heard anyone openly claim to actually be "making money" on resale timeshares. I'm certainly skeptical (...to say the least) but it may actually be true. If so, it's definitely a statistical rarity and, I would think, nearly a full time job in and of itself!

I think setting up a specific business for TS rental and having the capital or cash flow to maintain the business can work. What's tough is to have 2 or 3 units and try to rent them via the handlful of TS website.

It is certainly time consuming and beginning Apr-08 I'm making money but I'm not getting paid for my time much. There are certainly economies of scale, and a balanced combination of direct and resale purchases, along with strategic partnerships with certain other owners is important. I know a few other large owners and agencies, the owners claim (not currently) to be charging more than I do for units. Some of it might be their superior sales skills, some exagerations, some could be they market in different locations than I do. One guy I know owns/owned 1.3 million DRI Club points as wwell as DRI weeks units. But last year he said DRI pressured him to sell units and downsize. In retrospect they might have done him a favor!

And yes, this is a full time job and I admit I'm not taking as many vacations as I used to. I even have an admin and I work a lot. I'm looking forward to the return of pricing we had in 2007!

Hi I am surprised by comments on this topic. It is very very EASY.

1. TIMESHARES ARE A FANTASTIC INVESTMENT... period. This is just a no brainer. Obviously ONLY if you do it right.

2. EVERY INVESTMENT IS ONLY A GOOD INVESTMENT... IF YOU DO IT RIGHT. That should be very very obvious.

IF you bought a house years ago AND THE RIGHT HOUSE and SOLD it before the market tanked.... then you made money and a great investment. IF you bought stocks years ago AND the RIGHT ones... and SOLD before market tanked... then a great investment. IF you bought any timeshare at a good price and bought the right ones then you have a GREAT Investment.

I have made some great investments and some horrible ones. Most people have since you can never know when things will tank. However, you SHOULD understand the market, timing, product, before investing.

RIGHT NOW is the BEST TIME TO BUY A TIMESHARE... has never been better. Fact is... best time to buy a house or stock also. MOST PEOPLE ARE GUIDED BY FEAR... AND GREED... so they do everything BACKWARDS... just a fact of human nature. SO... IF you buy stocks, homes or timeshares NOW.... it is the BEST TIME there ever was to do so. Those who are afraid to invest in homes, stocks or timeshares now are doing it backwards...wrong. Yes things can go down some from here.... BUT YOU CAN NEVER PREDICT THE FUTURE FOR SURE. What you DO know is that you SAVE A LOT by buying now. Since timeshares are great vacations and you can rent your week if you do not use it... it is a no brainer.

Also... there is GOOD and BAD in EVERYTHING. A resession is GREAT IF you BUY during the resession (or depression if it gets to that). A GOOD thing... no one mentions that there is a GOOD side to it. Yes... a lot of bad... but there is also good.

ghhww states in part: >> It is very very EASY. TIMESHARES ARE A FANTASTIC INVESTMENT... period. This is just a no brainer. << =================================================

I'm a well educated and reasonably bright guy, but with all due respect (and with 25+ years of my own timeshare ownership and experience behind me) I submit that there is NOTHING about ANYTHING in the timeshare industry which is either "very very easy" or (in your words) a "no brainer".

If your particular business model works for you, that's great --- congratulations and more power to you. However, to characterize anything about timeshare as being either "very very easy" or a "no brainer" is, I submit, an absurd exaggeration and a truly astounding oversimplification. Just my personal opinion....

I agree to a certain extent with both ghhww and ken1193. There are so many people complaining about how a timeshare is such a bad investment and how timeshares should never be purchased as an investment because they are bad investments. But I know a lot of people who act the same way towards stocks. They buy mutual funds because "someone else does the work" and thus mutual funds are perceived as safer and simpler. I have news for you. Mutual funds are not safer nor simpler. The people who buy them just want to believe that having someone else make the decisions is easier and safer. Guess what? It might be easier because you want to believe that, but you make the same decisions to buy a mutual fund as a stock, and mutual funds rise and fall just like stock. They are not safer nor simpler. You just let someone else make your decision even though you don't understand how much you're being charged for them to make those decisions. If you're so willing to let others charge you for investments, be willing to pay someone to manage your timeshare.

The same is true for timeshares, or buying a home in order to rent out. If you're not the type of person who is willing to learn a bit before buying, and you're not willing to THINK before you buy DO NOT BUY A TIMESHRE. In fact, don't buy anything like a house or stock or mutual fund. They are all easy enough to buy but if you aren't willing to learn what you're getting yourself into you will have problems with understanding what you bought, how much you paid for it relative to what it provides for you, etc.

ken1193 wrote:

ghhww states in part: >> It is very very EASY. TIMESHARES ARE A FANTASTIC INVESTMENT... period. This is just a no brainer. << =================================================

I'm a well educated and reasonably bright guy, but with all due respect (and with 25+ years of my own timeshare ownership and experience behind me) I submit that there is NOTHING about ANYTHING in the timeshare industry which is either "very very easy" or a "no brainer".

If your particular business model works for you, that's great --- congratulations and more power to you. However, to characterize anything about timeshare as being either "very very easy" or a "no brainer" is, I submit, some serious exaggeration and truly gross oversimplification. Just my personal opinion....

I am in complete agreement with Ken. Just because one owns zillions of points and/or 200 timeshare weeks DOES NOT MEAN they can be rented or can be sold for a profit.

I remember reading about a lady on Tug that owned something like a zillion Wyndham points and she was making a living renting those points out, however, one day Wyndham changed their business plan (can't remember exactly what they changed since I'm not familiar with points at all) and the change upset her thriving career and she was in the process of losing her home. She was going under fast.

No way would I ever buy mega-points or 100 or more timeshares and try to make a living renting or selling them. It's just plain gambling with your life.

Another case in point; DRI changes polices upsetting mega point ower MNOP who makes a living renting/selling points/timeshares and has posted in this thread concerning how it can be done easily and with profit ..... none of these mega owners realize that any points or weeks program policies can be changed in a heartbeat.

MNOP wrote: "Diamond Resorts reduces owner benefits again!

It's bad enough that DRI changed their buyback program. If you didn't know, DRI has a buyback program where (until mid 2008) an owner who paid $16,000 for a timeshare could sell it back to DRI for $800 to $2,000. That sounds pretty bad, especially since DRI re-packages the timeshare into its sales program and re-sells it effectively for $5,000 to $20,000. But since mid 2008 DRI now buys those units for $100 to $700 and charges the timeshare owner $300 to $600 to transfer the unit back to themselves! DRI often charges more to transfer a timeshare back to itself than timeshare closing companies do!

Add to that a new policy in Jul-08 where DRI has decided to charge a $250 transfer fee for all sales and transfers (except in a few cases where legally they are not allow to: FL is $100 max by law, Powhatan and Greensprings are $50 due to HOA ByLaws, and I think there are one or two other exceptions), and their 2008 $70 assessment to Club owners (Club owners pay about $155 to $300 each year depending on ownership/membership type) which might be incorporated as a standard additional fee.

But what really rips me today is what appears to be a new policy affecting Club owners with short term reservations made at their own resorts. Until June or July 2008, owners in Club were allowed to reserve at their resort anytime of the week without incurring a 10% point premium other Club owners would pay if they were not direct owners of the resort. This was true regardless of whether the reservation was made 60 days or more in advance, or during the discount window of less than 60 days in advance. For the past two months I have had to call central reservations becuase the DRI website has included the 10% premium. When I called in and explained I was an owner at the resort, the reservations people, after conferring with their supervisors, would properly adjust the reservation to remove the 10% premium. However, today I was told this had not been policy EVER.

Even after providing dozens of examples and asking to elevate the issue to a lead, then a supervisor, DRI would not admit they implemented a policy change. After extensive review of documents and examples DRI finally admitted deeded owners were not subject to the 10% mid week premium at their resorts, but any discounts available for sub 60 day stays were based on "THE STANDARD POINTS RATE" for the reservation. As DRI sees it the standard rate for mid week checkin is 10% higher than checking in Fri/Sat/Sun and as such we now pay 10% more. They now view deeded owner rates during the week as a waiver of the standard rate rather than an exemption to the 10% premium.

Clever of them, I must admit. Now if I just could contact a large enough group of owners to consider alternatives to DRI managing our Club membership, or other such actions to regain control of our benefits ... call me or comment!"

ghww says timeshares are a "fantastic" monetary investment and comparable to investments in the stock market and real estate prior to the recent financial collapse. In my opinion, and statistically supported, the average "Joe" or "Jane" with a minimal knowledge of either the stock market and/or housing market could have made money over the last twenty years excluding the last year but I submit that no average investor could have consistently made money investing in timeshares over the same period.

Its possible that some bottom feeders, including PC companies, who are willing to make unconscionable offers to desparate sellers and in turn willing to sell to an uninformed buyer could make money in the timeshare market but I think the number of folks who consistently make money doing this is so miniscule that it is not measurable. Certainly not the average investor or should I add anyone with a degree of morality.

In reality a timeshare is not a good monetary investment for the average person but rather an expenditure for vacations and enjoyment for the family. The payment of $5,000 for a family cruise is not a good monetary investment because at the end of the cruise one has nothing but pleasant memories. A timeshare purchase should be viewed in the same light. It is an investment in memories for the family with a minimal hope of later recoverying a portion of the purchase price and fees paid during the ownership.

To illustrate, consider you purchase a $20,000 timeshare that you expect to own and use - not rent out - for a period of 12 years. That $20,000 invested at 6% would double in value to $40,000 in 12 years so you have a negative investment of $20,000 just from the loss of earnings. Assume you have an initial MF of $600 that increases annually at 6%. In 12 years you will have invested $11,000 (rounded) in fees. This makes for a negative return of $31,000 not including the II and/or RCI fees you will pay. If you are like many purchasers you will finance the purchase through the developer and pay a typical 14% for 10 years resulting in $14,000 in interest assuming a 10% down payment. That means you have a negative investment of $45,000 plus.

The at the end of the 12 years you will be fortunate to recover 30% of the initial purchase price or say $6,000. That is not a "fantastic" investment. But, if it was in a desirable location in the right season you have memories that are invaluable.

As I posted on this thread... I have made a LOT of money buying and reselling timeshares. True, now business is dead.

But over the last 15 years I have gone on about 50 or more PAID vacations, and made money.

It is just like any business, you have to know what you are doing, what things are worth, what are the RIGHT timeshares to buy, most are junk.

I have personally owned over 1000 timeshares and obviously I would not be wasting my time or money if I did not make money.

What is very important is that I am up front, honest and straight forward with everyone on everything. I have LOST a LOT of business because I tell it like it is, and many people believe the scam sellers. Fine if people sell timeshares or list timeshares to make money, but too many of them lie and decieve just as the developers do when they sell them. Tmeshares are amazing, if you do it right.

Geez.... You totally misunderstood me...and are nit picking.

You focus on my comment that it is very very easy.

What I meant was. IF you do things correctly and you know what you are doing... you make money. In THAT sense it is VERY VERY EASY.

Easy in that you buy the RIGHT stocks or houses or timeshares at the RIGHT PRICE then you MAKE MONEY>

THAT is easy. Spending the TIME to KNOW how to do it is not quite as easy.

HOWEVER, I started with NO knowledge 15 years ago and made money on timeshares. In fact it is very easy to lose money on other investments. It is VERY easy to make money with timeshares. Basically it is just common sense and some knowledge and experience to know what is what.

As posted weeks ago and was criticized and mocked for just trying to help. Some people do know a lot, so I understand what I say, they already know. Many people THINK they know a lot but they do not. Most people do not have a clue... and I understand that since there are a hell of a lot of details and a lot of very bad info out there.... WHICH IS WHY I POSTED HERE TO BEGIN WITH.

Because timeshares are an AMAZING investment. I have been to Hyatt in Aspen New Years $750 Paris 2br for Millennium $375 Only two of many wonderful vacations that were paid for from sales and rentals of other timeshares many times over. Anyone can do it. Most people got scammed as I did on my first and then give up or never try to make them work. I have helped a lot of people do the same, and I love it. And NOW is the absolute best time to buy a timeshare by far. I bet no one is saying... Yeah we have a recession...great! Well, if you BUY timeshares or stocks or houses now... you will do very well in the future. Quit complaining and buy when prices are low and sell when prices are high.

Ghhww, the topic under discussion is whether or not the purchase of a timeshare is a good investment. You, ghhww, may make money buying and selling timeshares and vacation in Aspen at the Hyatt on New Years Day but I still contend that for the average person a timeshare is not a good monetary investment. Just look at all of the discounted timeshares for sale on the internet and that will answer the question posed without the necessity of any research. You are the exception to the rule and have made money buying and selling timeshares but the average person will not and should not buy a timeshare thinking they will turn a profit. For most folks, the purchase of a share of Citigroup stock is a better monetary investment than a timeshare. Stating that fact is not "nit picking".

ghhww wrote:

What I meant was. IF you do things correctly and you know what you are doing... you make money. In THAT sense it is VERY VERY EASY.

Not in this market, no matter how much you know. Hawaii is one example ..... used to be a very high demand area for tourists .... not so any longer with skyrocketing air fares and this economy. It's actually all about common sense and this down market. Even domestic travel is down. You might have formerly made money, but I can guarantee that you have had only losses in the last 6 months and that you're business model will collapse.

I sincerely hope that anyone reading this thread ignores your advice thinking they can make money buying, selling and renting timeshares ..... it just ain't so.

Try going to TUG and posting your 'making money via timeshares' thread and see how fast you're laughed off the site.

carvana wrote:

In reality a timeshare is not a good monetary investment for the average person but rather an expenditure for vacations and enjoyment for the family. The payment of $5,000 for a family cruise is not a good monetary investment because at the end of the cruise one has nothing but pleasant memories. A timeshare purchase should be viewed in the same light.

At least with a cruise, you're NOT responsible for paying yearly maintenance fees and possible special assessments until you die and even afterwards (your estate is then responsible).

Another example is Harborside @ Atlantis, Nassau Bahamas (one of the most sought after locations in timesharing) which laid off 800 employess recently along with layoffs from mega developer Westgate also. I'm sure we'll be seeing more in the near future.

Once again, you can SAVE money if you know what you are doing. I am going on 3 vacations in the next 5 weeks and my savings by using my timeshares will be about $ 4000. I save $4000. So how is that a bad investment?

And also if you buy some bargains NOW...in this bad economy, you can sell them for MORE in a year or 2 or 3 years.

IF you know what you are doing you can make timeshares work... and make money with them. Most people do not... but it is pretty strange to tell other people not to follow my advice when you know nothing about what you are talking about.

". . .but it is pretty strange to tell other people not to follow my advice when you know nothing about what you are talking about. "

No one on this thread has told anyone not to follow your advice. The problem is you have not given any advice. You just keep saying over and over that those that know how can make money buying and selling timeshares but you never share your secret for success with us. Reading your posts is like watching a late night shill on a T.V. informercial telling us over and over that we can make big money buying foreclosed real estate but never sharing the secret to success without the purchase of expensive books and videos.

There is empirical evidence in abundance supporting the argument that timeshares are not a good monetary investment but you have not provided one scintilla of evidence to support your argument that timeshares are a good investment. You just talk down to us and suggest that if we had your "know how" we too could take wonderful vacations using the profits from our timeshare sales.

ghhww wrote:

Once again, you can SAVE money if you know what you are doing. I am going on 3 vacations in the next 5 weeks and my savings by using my timeshares will be about $ 4000. I save $4000. So how is that a bad investment?

And also if you buy some bargains NOW...in this bad economy, you can sell them for MORE in a year or 2 or 3 years.

IF you know what you are doing you can make timeshares work... and make money with them. Most people do not... but it is pretty strange to tell other people not to follow my advice when you know nothing about what you are talking about.

This same person posted on Tug that he paid $10K for a S. African timeshare with only $350 maintenance fees.

First, this person seems to think that just because the maintenance fees are $350 he completely ignores the original $10K he paid and averages his nightly rates on maintenance fees alone (and he knows what he's doing ..... I don't think so ?).

Second, there's no way on God's green earth that I would pay $10K for any timeshare, much less a S. African timeshare that's trading power has dwindled immensely.

Third, I wonder how many of those $10K S. African timeshares he's bought when you can pick one up on Ebay for $1 [ignorance is evidently bliss].

This is why I have advised readers here to completely ignore such blatant timeshare uneducated dribble that he has posted here.

I understand the problem.

I ACCEPT YOUR POINT OF VIEW.... but you do NOT accept mine. What is worse is that you wish to run me down. That is just strange.

You don't understand who to work timeshares. That is fine, most people do not.

I do. And in 15 years I have learned how to get PAID to go on vacation. Paid. Not free... PAID. I fully understand if you don't know how it works but that is no reason to run me down or discount what I have to say.

I would very much like to know if other people on this chat board would rather.... 1. Hear what I have to say and how to work timeshares. or 2. Hear what you have to say, which as I see it is very little and all negative. Certainly not helpful or constructive.

So...anyone want to post? I would be glad to shut up if no one wishes to hear how I work the system. It isn't easy. The CONCEPT is EASY... but you do have to learn a lot to make it work.

The concept is just buying the right timeshares at the right prices. Then learn how to get the best trades...and there are tricks to doing it. If you can do that, then TIMESHARES ARE A FANTASTIC INVESTMENT.

ONLY reason I posted is because it seemed to me that many people did not know how to make it work. I do... and have for 15 years...and it IS the best thing I ever did in my life.

There is NO argument with my point of view. It is fact. There also is no argument with YOUR point of view. I understand you don't know how to make it work. I was merely saying it IS possible and I know others who also make it work, and many many more who do not.

I had a heart attack and 5 bypasses 3 years ago. I have always enjoyed my life, but that really made me realize that life is short, and I have been using my timeshares to travel and see the world. I am lucky. And, I don't understand people who go on chat boards to run people down and discount their particular perspective.

I say this only to encourage anyone who reads this to make sure you enjoy life, friends and family. Make every day count, because life is short no matter how long you live. Happy Thanksgiving to you! I wish you well.

jayjay wrote:

... ower MNOP ... has posted in this thread concerning how it can be done easily and with profit .....

I do not recall ever saying renting timeshares was easy. In fact I have made a conscious effort to admit it requires a significant amount of time and has challenges.

But just because I firmly state it is not only possible to make money renting timeshares, but I AM DOING IT, that does not mean you have any right to mis-quote me by claiming I said it was easy.

carvana wrote:

... In my opinion, and statistically supported, the average "Joe" or "Jane" with a minimal knowledge of either the stock market and/or housing market could have made money over the last twenty years excluding the last year but I submit that no average investor could have consistently made money investing in timeshares over the same period ... In reality a timeshare is not a good monetary investment for the average person ... To illustrate, consider you purchase a $20,000 timeshare that you expect to own and use [resulting in] a negative return of $31,000 not including the II and/or RCI fees you will pay.

WHAT? You can't say stocks are better than timeshares, but specifically omit the current performance of stocks while using the current performance of timeshares to make your point. Clearly both investments are getting hammered. Your comparing 20 years of stocks to timeshares also has faults. I have time and time again stated you must buy re-sale units to realize increase in timeshare value. Buying a timeshare from a developer is like buying stock at the top of a market and selling it at the bottom of a market. Of course it doesn't work that way. But when comparing apples to apples (best value in each case) the comparison is much more accurate.

I love your faulty $20,000 purchase, including interest rates and maintenance payments and even the exchange fees. What happened to the deduction in cost from not having to spend money on hotel units? LOL I have only seen one sided examples like yours during a timeshare preserntation!

Be realistic. timeshares bought direct have poor investment value but if used correctly can still be a good investment. timeshares on the re-sale market offer excellent investment value as vacation use products or rental products. All life decisions require common sense and expenditure of time to best ensure a positive outcome. People who don't invest the time and use common sense will not realize a satisfactory return on their investment, timeshare or otherwise.